[Simms]

This may have been discussed somewhere before, so I appologize if has been.

Is it possible or has it been looked at to do a water injection for intercooling a Roe supercharger? Or is water injection kind of an old school technology that is outdated by todays intercoolers? Kenne Bell used to make a water/alcohol injection kit for their twin screw setups that let you run an additional 2 pounds of boost, but it doesn't seem available anymore.

I really want to do a Roe setup, and will probably wait for Sean's intercooler, but I was just wondering if the more simple water injection would do the job.

 

[Cudaman]

I was at Sean Roe new shop on Monday(29). Sean has built a protype intercooler himself (old news), but now he had some manufactures build some pieces from his specs. On Monday, Sean had just received a key component back from one of his manufacturers. I think it was the intercooler manifold, it was in box just delivered from UPS.

Sean has just got settled into his new shop/test facilities. He is in the process of gearing up into full testing-sales mode v.s. pack up and unpacking mode and enjoying the Holidays.

Cudaman :flag:

 

[Simms]

I was at Sean Roe new shop on Monday(29). Sean has built a protype intercooler himself (old news), but now he had some manufactures build some pieces from his specs. On Monday, Sean had just received a key component back from one of his manufacturers. I think it was the intercooler manifold, it was in box just delivered from UPS.

Sean has just got settled into his new shop/test facilities. He is in the process of gearing up into full testing-sales mode v.s. pack up and unpacking mode and enjoying the Holidays.

Cudaman :flag:

Sounds nice! I read he was working on a nice intercooler. Hopefully by this summer it is all finilized and ready to be part of his supercharger package.

 

[Dr Roof]

UtahVIper

has a methonal injection on his car that works incredible. I am sure he will post on this matter. His car is really fast!

 

[Mister Bone]

If you really want to know about water/ alky/meth injection just ask the Grand National guys.

Just be prepared to read for a few weeks as you will find out more info than you could imagine. But it will be all good info.

 

[GTS Dean]

As water vaporizes, it cools the incoming charge. Its main purpose is to cool the combustion temperatures enough to minimize or eliminate pre-ignition, but this will cost you power and efficiency. Water vapor displaces oxygen molecules, dilutes the incoming charge and reduces power. Alcohol has a lower heat of vaporization than water and helps cool the incoming charge better for increased density. Unlike water, it is also combustible and will add a few Btu's of energy.

 

[McGuireV10]

Call Sean, he built several variations on a water injection setup for testing purposes just before he put the SC on the market.

 

[Simms]

Thanks everyone for the info. I'd like to hear about Utah's setup.

Would a water injection be run by the VEC2, or some other computer? I beleive Sean ran a nitrous system with his supercharger using the VEC2 on a FE GTS.

 

[1TONY1]

Would a water injection be run by the VEC2

Stay tuned /images/graemlins/yes

 

[Cudaman]

Would a water injection be run by the VEC2

Stay tuned /images/graemlins/yes

We are tuned and ready for the "beans to be spilled"......


the suspense

......

is

.......

killing

.....

us


.....



Cudaman :flag:

 

[Torquemonster]

As water vaporizes, it cools the incoming charge. Its main purpose is to cool the combustion temperatures enough to minimize or eliminate pre-ignition, but this will cost you power and efficiency. Water vapor displaces oxygen molecules, dilutes the incoming charge and reduces power. Alcohol has a lower heat of vaporization than water and helps cool the incoming charge better for increased density. Unlike water, it is also combustible and will add a few Btu's of energy.

Good explanation - translated it means that a good setup will not make as much power as top shelf race gas or a full methanol engine will with maximum compression etc.... BUT it will enable you to build in more hp at the same octane than was possible without it.

A good water injection system is worth an easy 50hp but that is the entry level for the good guys - it is all in how well it is atomised and tabled to come in etc. By using a 50/50 mix of water and methanol the effects are slightly improved for the reasons Dean said - but the gain from adding the Methanol is not huge - the main gain is the in cylinder cooling - that while the water robs some power - it enables the tuner to extract a lot more than it robs by dialing in more boost and/or timing and optimise fuel for power and not need to run excess fuel as a cooler.

On A Subaru I've run 9:1 compression on 91 octane at 18lb boost with 24 degrees timing at full boost/load. Without water timing had to be retarded to under 18 degrees which meant it would have gone better on less boost with more timing. The water was worth a huge power gain from those 6 degrees of timing gained, plus the fuel curve was very efficient as it did not need to be rich anymore. That was a daily driver and never missed a beat. It was the only Subaru Legacy wagon in NZ that would top 150mph, yet it would also return 32% better fuel economy at cruise than a STOCK one. Summary - water works when done right - but a lot of cowboys have horror stories - so its not something you make up from a windscreen washer bottle/pump!!!

 

[Mister Bone]

I am sure you are familiar with this TM

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

 

[McGuireV10]

I beleive Sean ran a nitrous system with his supercharger using the VEC2 on a FE GTS.

Yes. Apparently it's quite a monster. (I mean that in a good way.)
I keep forgetting to drive over there and check it out.

 

[utahviper]

I have a water methanol injection system on my car that is run independent of the VEC2.

Here is my opinion, I am no expert so all I can tell you is what I experienced. I installed a water methanol system in my car and received many advantages. First, and maybe the biggest advantage, the system dramatically cooled down the blower! I could never dream of touching my blower after a full throttle run and now I can hot lap my car with virtually no power loss. Second, my car gained boost from the system. Somewhere between .5-1 lb. Third, the intake temperatures before the system (with 8.5-9lbs of boost) were around 210-220 depending on the gear. Now the intake temperatures range from 90-120. That is a huge decrease in air intake temps! Fourth, since my intake temps dropped so dramatically I was able to advance the timing 4 degrees in the midrage, before the intercooling i was advancing it 1.5 degrees. Realize that I am no where near the threshold of timing advance. I know I can go alot further but I will not until I can implement a knock sensor. Fifth, I now have the ability to run more boost. In utah I run about 9.5-10lbs of boost with this system. In texas I had about 10.5-11 lbs of boost. I have a pulley in my possession that will increase my boost by at least 2.5lbs. I will let you do the math. I had it with me in texas but didn't really get a chance to use it. Finally, I cannot quantify the power increase but I can tell you that my mph in the traps increased by 9mph.

I am working with the company that developed the system for me to bundle it into a resellable system. It will have step by step instructions. Do's and don'ts. It will be complete with braided lines etc. You will have to purchase this system from an authorized dealer because there is quit a bit of tuning involved but the power increases are dramatic! I will not have this system available to the general public until the summer. I want to do some more testing in the heat to see if there is any adverse effects.

I am happy to answer any questions but again I am no expert.

 

[Torquemonster]

I am sure you are familiar with this TM

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

Oh yes, Richard runs a very good operation - wink wink nod nod :thumb:





Utahviper - great work!! /images/graemlins/thumb1

 

[Simms]

Thanks for the great info. Between UtahViper, 1Tony1, Sean Roe's setup, and any others, sounds like I'm going to have some good options ahead of me.

Can't wait to see/hear about these setups. I'm looking into a system hopefully this summer, so it sounds like the options will possible be available. /images/graemlins/thumb1

But how much boost can you really run (intercooled and not intercooled) on a forged piston car (assuing rockers and exhaust) without additional upgrades. And what should be upgraded before forcing to much air in?

 

[utahviper]

I was running 10.5lbs of boost on a stock bottom end with ported heads and decreased compression. If you want to run more than 7-8lbs of boost you will have to decrease your compression at the very least. Once you have decreased your compression then another potential problem is boost creep. You might have to port your heads. Then, with the water methanol injection, you will not have to upgrade your fuel system. If you decide to go some other way then you will have to upgrade your fuel system to go over 600rwhp.

With my setup I think I can run around 15lbs of boost at sea level but it is weather the stock bottom end will be able to hold that much boost. Also, that is about the maximum amount of boost you will be able to run with the roe blower. I have seen a few systems that claim to have stock bottom ends with around 13lbs of boost.

 

[Simms]

Then, with the water methanol injection, you will not have to upgrade your fuel system.

Please explain, I'm a little slow today. And what did you do to lower your compression? I seen someone is working on a head gasket that is claimed to lower compression.

Thanks for all your info, love your car. Got any good pics of your car and setup?

 

[PBJ]

UtahViper,
What is the maximum CFM flow on Sean's blower ? I would think that you are getting close to the end. At one point you will only be spinning the blower faster and not pushing anymore air. I am suprised that it will take 12-15 pounds of boost at full flow. I am no expert either, just very curious. I know on Vortechs and Paxtons that a certain pulley will flow X amount of CFM which may be more or less than an ATI with the same pulley size. I know that every blower has a rating and it will effect the amount of air it can move, that is why I ask. I would think that your ported heads made a lot of difference and a larger duration camshaft would be better still. I would think the pulley could be the same, but you would be allowing more air into the motor... any insight would be great. If you have some time, could you e-mail me some info on your injection set up ... I am very interested.
Thanks,
Joe

 

[1TONY1]

Then, with the water methanol injection, you will not have to upgrade your fuel system.

Please explain, I'm a little slow today. And what did you do to lower your compression? I seen someone is working on a head gasket that is claimed to lower compression.

Thanks for all your info, love your car. Got any good pics of your car and setup?

If you use a methanol mix, the methonal is a fuel and will richen the mixture.