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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hypothetically;

opinion(s) on just how far these damn vipers can be taken BUT remain a complete daily driver, grocery getter, pumpgas streetcar.

for example; lets take a 750HP all motor viper and then add a TT to it?? is this doable and if so, what (opinions here please) would be expected from this monstrosity as far as power?

i know mild to mod all motor upgrades are fine prior to the big power adders BUT what about a kickass beast of an allmotor car as stated above prior to adding a serious power adder like the TT.

it seems everyone doing the TT is making amazing power (hell there were FOUR vipers in jasons shop yesterday with TT packages, it would seem SCs and NOS are yesterday anymore) but they are doing this upgrade with a STOCK bucket not a heavily modded all motor car
 

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Hmm, dunno about that Rich, the S/C are still the fastest in the 1/4. When a TT with no juice takes out a S/C in MPH, then we'll see. /images/graemlins/smiles

G
 

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problem with a all motor car going TT, some of the things that make a ALL motor car not a good Turbo car. Cams are wrong, to high of a compresion. and boost doesnt like timing advanced (detonation) you would have to plan from the begininning to get the most out of the car. I cant wait to see some one built a 550 stroker and twinturbo it.
 

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well thats what i might do, first the 650 package and some, then when i get used/bored to/with it, send the car back and add a tt package which would take it up to 1100/1200 hp??, according to Jason getting grip would be the problem, When we were in Bradenton he told me he went at it with Sal's TT and got real grip only after he got to the 5th gear.......
 

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Mojo - you cant build a 650 rw hp NA Viper motor and then just add a turbo system without completely changning every component in the motor. You would be better off to buy a seperate motor and start from scratch. Anyone who is interested in knowing the truth about turbos just needs a test ride in a well tuned twin turbo Viper.

G - our stock motor SRT twin turbo ran 152.2 mph at the Texas V10 Nats on 13 psi and no water injection. Outside of Dr. Roof's SC (151 mph) I dont see another SC Viper anywhere close to that kind of trap speed.

Aside from the dragstrip, dyno and internet conjecture, I can tell you the following truth - a well tuned twin turbo Viper will offer the greatest combination of power and driveability. They are relatively quiet, idle smoothly and produce a broader power curve than any other power adder. Not smack, just facts. Again, just get a twin turbo test ride and you will know what I am talking about.
 

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You cant buld a N/A motor making 750 flywheel Hp (about 650rwhp) without running an extremely high compression ratio, and a very aggressive cam. Moreover, you may even choose different types of pistons for forced induction applications that have the rings spaced correctly from the piston top. If you add twin turbos to a high-compression setup, it either wont do much boost (if any).just be tossin piston parts out the tialpipe, or throwing connecting rods out the side of the block.
 

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[image]http://www.viperalley.com/gallery/data/500/155890rw.jpg[/image]

If you take 2 Vipers, both with 890 rw hp, one of them is SC and the other is TT, you might think that they will both run even. You would be wrong. Why? Well just compare the power under the curve. You cant race an engine at the rpm where the peak number is. You usually run through the gears from 3800 - 6000 rpm. So if you were to compare both 890 rw hp cars you would see that the twin turbo makes a lot more power in the low and mid range. In some cases the difference in torque can be in the hundreds. This is why any time I have given an SC Viper owner a TT ride, they are shocked. Both systems are fun and powerful, but the differences in power below the peak 890 rw hp number are huge. If anyone has a SC Viper dyno sheet in the range of 890 rw hp, just compare the rw hp and rw tq numbers from 3800 - 6000 and tell us what the differences are between the 2.

Again, no smack here. I have the highest respect and admiration for the SC guys. We all want to go fast and there are a lot of different ways to do it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
thnx guys for the input, i appreciate it.

John; that was kinda my assumption...just doing it with a whole new engine. the route im going with my rt10 now is still at a level where i can go either direction (more NA or start power adder) but im almost at point of no turning back (unless i want to waste cash). so, im figuring maybe think seriously and slowly on it for a couple months or so and then if still into wanting TT buy a new viper and do it to that one, I should have never sold my black 03.

I also threw the idea of a TT SRT10 ram to Jason. bad ass truck!
 

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Rich that is an excellent question and while Gerald's observation is totally valid I submit the answers will be found successively over the next 2 years where the envelope will begin to get pushed.

That means the TT envelope is not being pushed yet. /images/graemlins/smiles


You are going to hear of some major developments in TT over the coming months - be patient and it will be worth it. Nothing makes power like a well set up TT.


As for strokers and TT - well if you must. But line up a well built 550 TT that can handle 15lb up to 5600rpm against a stock capacity but super strong 488 engine that runs 25lb with ease - and guess which one will win?

Sometimes bigger is not always better, sometimes it is just more - and this is true when you start pushing the limits. Stokers are fine for modest boost applications and lower than stock rpm limits.

/images/graemlins/supergrin.gif
 

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So TQMNSTR, do you think that the optimum bore/rod/stroke for a TT V-10 may actually equate to less than 488 cu in's?

Also, for a street car, I think it will be very difficult to beat a S/C car. The power is so linear and managable that a good driver is capable of putting more power to the ground than any other power adder, IMHO. This is on the street with less than optimal traction, not on the dyno or strip with slicks, etc that I am refering to. Although they are holding their own there as well.

Chad
 

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flying dutchman said:
well thats what i might do, first the 650 package and some, then when i get used/bored to/with it, send the car back and add a tt package which would take it up to 1100/1200 hp??, according to Jason getting grip would be the problem, When we were in Bradenton he told me he went at it with Sal's TT and got real grip only after he got to the 5th gear.......
Trust me, you run a 650 package and you will want more power after 30 days. My Red RT/10 has well into the 500+ RWHP on motor only, and after a month I wanted more power.

I just got my DLM viper 6 days ago and it has over 1000 hp (883 RWHP) and now I wouldn't mind even more power /images/graemlins/wink

As for wheel spin, I have to tell you, these Sport Cup tires on 18 inch wheels are absolutely amazing, at least in warm weather. When Doug ran them in cold weather, he said they were spinning, but in the 7 races I did yesterday from a roll and punching the pedal at various RMP's in 2nd gear, the tires would not break loose. Could be a combo of a few things (I have some extra weight in the back right now) and the suspension is softer than normal so weight transfer to the rears is good.

If a turbo car is breaking non-stock wheels loose at the track in 3rd and 4th gear, that is scary. I wouldn't want that on the street if the power kicks in that hard that fast. In the end, it seems like the MPH are similar between the turbos and S/C cars so far, so I am guessing the S/C cars just pull longer while the turbos hit real hard initially? A turbo can't hit harder than a S/C car and then continue to pull harder than a S/C car the whole time AND then get the same MPH -- if it pulls harder immediately, it has to give somewhere else when the numbers for the S/C and TT are the same. Know what I mean?

I have never been in a turbo viper yet, so I can't compare the two. I have been told though that the turbo cars have no lag when you hit them and it's like hitting Nitrous almost. I love the punchy feeling of my Gen I all motor car, but I love the constant pull of the S/C car as boost builds -- the pull gets stronger and stronger and stronger -- it's sick!

Yellow Fever, how much longer before we can create our own epic race video?

-Manny
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
guys, great input. i gots some thinking to do, i already know pretty much which way im going in all this, just getting a bit more input is all im doing now. the TT truck though is definitely in my future this yr
 

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On lt1 and ls1, we ran bolton s/c(9lbs) with bolt on heads, and 383/396 stroker kits, like tuners do, together. Anything more would have required more thought into the setup. We ran the twin s/c kit(16lbs) for the mustang, but we had to design a whole engine around it. For twinbo's, you have to design The whole thing out from the start. It's best to think of what you want, and design it all from the start, because when you change midways, it adds costs, ask Bill Gates about his house? Also you will have differences even just adding a s/c that will have to be addressed.

EDIT:I have seen bolton turbo kits, low boost, quick, a little more power, cost more than a s/c, I found them a waste of time. IMO just s/c it if just a bolton.
 

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John Hennessey said:
If you take 2 Vipers, both with 890 rw hp, one of them is SC and the other is TT, you might think that they will both run even. You would be wrong. Why? Well just compare the power under the curve. You cant race an engine at the rpm where the peak number is. You usually run through the gears from 3800 - 6000 rpm. So if you were to compare both 890 rw hp cars you would see that the twin turbo makes a lot more power in the low and mid range. In some cases the difference in torque can be in the hundreds. This is why any time I have given an SC Viper owner a TT ride, they are shocked. Both systems are fun and powerful, but the differences in power below the peak 890 rw hp number are huge. If anyone has a SC Viper dyno sheet in the range of 890 rw hp, just compare the rw hp and rw tq numbers from 3800 - 6000 and tell us what the differences are between the 2.

Again, no smack here. I have the highest respect and admiration for the SC guys. We all want to go fast and there are a lot of different ways to do it.
John,

I don't speak mechanic talk, so bare with me if my post doesn't make sense. As you probably know, I just got myself a super charged car. However, if turbos are the future, I will certainly get one on my next Viper which will more than likely be an SRT/10. I obviously like the fact that boost can easily be controlled on a turbo car.

First, do the turbos being used on vipers share the same oil as the engine? If so, if a turbo blows, does your engine go too (due to bits of metal in the oil) ?

Next, if turbos have such a huge number under the curve, why are the MPH about the same compared to similary powered S/C cars? Do the turbos run out of power and torque after 5K rpms and the S/C pull the hardest there in both power and torque?

Lastly, has anybody really gone out with a turbo car (other than at a 1/4 mile track) and really beat up on their car without wrenching the heck out of the car? I know Gerald has one of the older S/C systems and races and beats on his all the time. I took mine out and broke it in with 7 consecutive races with speeds over 180 MPH, in the desert without any over heating issues, and I beat on it hard (I was racing some of the fastest street bikes around.) I will continue to drive my car very hard, as that is just me. Bottom line, are turbos just as reliable, if not more, than S/C'ers?

What advantages do you see to both systems, other than cost?

By the way, my car is relatively close in power to the dyno you posted, so I will post mine, and perhaps you can run through it point by point for all of us. Thanks.

[image]http://www.viperalley.com/gallery/data/500/155890rw.jpg[/image]
[image]http://www.gigatechsoftware.com/cars/dyno.jpg[/image]

-Manny
 

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Gerald You are right!

The supercharger is proven to be the quickest at the track! 9.63 ET and I plan on running a 9.5 in Texas this coming week in my DLM Supercharged Viper!

The benefit for now of the Twin Turbo is the street. they are not so loud! Outside of that it is still yet to be proven!

As for now DLM owns the forced induction Rides!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
damn good questions manny. i used to hear turbos were very rough on a car (i remember back when i bought a buick grand national one mechanic said with a laugh, get rid of the car before 60K)but maybe thats not true anymore, like turbo lag maybe its a thing of the past now?
 

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BADASP said:
So TQMNSTR, do you think that the optimum bore/rod/stroke for a TT V-10 may actually equate to less than 488 cu in's?

Also, for a street car, I think it will be very difficult to beat a S/C car. The power is so linear and managable that a good driver is capable of putting more power to the ground than any other power adder, IMHO. This is on the street with less than optimal traction, not on the dyno or strip with slicks, etc that I am refering to. Although they are holding their own there as well.

Chad
Chad - You could build a big stroker to rpm hard - but it would not live long. A pro built 488 engine could rpm hard and last 24 hours at LeMans... oh that's right they did that... grin

You think an 8 litre V10 supercharged to over 800rwhp is easily manageable in the wet? Maybe if you keep it just above idle - then sure, of course.

But a TT car is very manageable even at higher rpms - long as you have a good visible boost guage to drive off. You could accelerate to 4000rpm thru the gears easily in the wet with a TT (on vacuum) - try that in a SC car.

With turbos you drive off those guages in traction marginal conditions.

Where traction is less marginal you can travel very quickly on a bit more partial throttle in a TT just driving off the guage and feed in enough until the tires start to go and back off slightly and hold it steady. They are the most effortless torquemonsters driven this way with power that seems to go on from 2000 to the redline.

The TT car is FAR more manageable off boost than a SC car. The only problem is - if loaded too hard - boost will come on much faster and stronger than a SC from down early in the rpm range. With a TT car boost is more a function of your right foot than just rpm...

boost dial up speed can also be electronically controlled much easier, you can even alter boost per gear, and traction control is coming with the new AEM.

Therefore the TT car is more flexible yet more extreme when you mash it. At the same time it tends to be a lot quieter so is more stealthy and less hot rod than a loud SC car with comparable sized exhaust tailpipes.

Under heavy foot - yes the SC car will be more manageable because it makes less power until it winds itself up - so it is a matter of taste.
 

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V10 MOJO said:
damn good questions manny. i used to hear turbos were very rough on a car (i remember back when i bought a buick grand national one mechanic said with a laugh, get rid of the car before 60K)but maybe thats not true anymore, like turbo lag maybe its a thing of the past now?
No, you are right. Anything that forces HP more quickly is going to be tougher on an engine. Going from 400 HP to 800 HP on a curve over 8 seconds has to be less tressful than doing it over 3 seconds (like a big ass shot of Nitrous.)

But let's be honest -- if you can afford a turbo, you're probably not going to be too worried about lowering engine life slightly.

I agree with Roof, that the QUIET aspect of a turbo is nice. I'm talking to Doug now though to see what kind of cool ideas we can come up with to make a quiet yet monster of a S/C car. Torquemonster has some good ideas too. Moundir has Borla exhaust on his (I have Corsa) and I am told his car is much more quiet. Have any of you guys swapped out a Borla for Corsa exhaust and compared?
 

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THIS IS A GOOD DISCUSSION. MANNY, HERE ARE A FEW ANSWERS:

I don't speak mechanic talk, so bare with me if my post doesn't make sense. As you probably know, I just got myself a super charged car. However, if turbos are the future, I will certainly get one on my next Viper which will more than likely be an SRT/10. I obviously like the fact that boost can easily be controlled on a turbo car.
BOOST CONTROL IS A NICE FEATURE FOR SURE.

First, do the turbos being used on vipers share the same oil as the engine? If so, if a turbo blows, does your engine go too (due to bits of metal in the oil) ?
YES, OUR TT SYSTEM USES ENGINE OIL. OUT OF 16 TWIN TURBO VIPERS WE HAVE YET TO LOSE A TURBO. I GUESS ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, BUT I DOUBT THAT A TURBO FAILURE WOULD LEAD TO AN ENGINE FAILURE. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF TURBO CARS AND TRUCKS OUT THERE AND WHEN THEIR TURBOS GO BAD THEIR ENGINES DO NOT FAIL. ALSO, I AM GUESSING THAT CENTRIFUL VIPER SC KITS ARE LUBRICATED BY SHARED ENGINE OIL.

Next, if turbos have such a huge number under the curve, why are the MPH about the same compared to similary powered S/C cars?
I CAN ONLY SPEAK ABOUT THE TURBO CARS I PRODUCE. OUR LAST TRIP TO THE TRACK WAS IN NOVEMBER WITH A TT SRT10 THAT MADE 780 RW HP AND 998 RW TQ THE DAY BEFORE THE DRAGS. THIS CAR RAN 152.2 AND 148.7 MPH THAT DAY ON 14 PSI AND 13 PSI BOOST. I SUGGEST TO YOU THAT OUTSIDE OF DR. ROOF'S CAR (WATER INJECTION WHICH SEEMS TO HELP A LOT) THAT THERE IS IN FACT NO SC VIPER THAT WILL RUN WITHIN 5 - 8 MPH OF OUR TT VIPERS. COMPARE WHAT ALL THE OTHER SC VIPERS WTIHOUT WATER INJECTION RAN FOR MPH AT THE SAME EVENT - NONE BETTER THAN 144 MPH ON BOOST ONLY.

Do the turbos run out of power and torque after 5K rpms and the S/C pull the hardest there in both power and torque?
DEPENDS ON THE TT. THE GRAPH I LISTED WAS ON A STOCK 99 MOTOR. LOOKS LIKE THE POWER CURVE IS DONE BY ABOUT 5700 RPM. BUT BY THAT TIME, THE RACE WOULD MOST LIKELY BE OVER WITH ANYWAY. A WELL TUNED TT CAR WITH A GOOD HEAD/CAM COMBINATION WILL KEEP MAKING CLOSE TO PEAK POWER TO BEYOND 6000 RPM.

Lastly, has anybody really gone out with a turbo car (other than at a 1/4 mile track) and really beat up on their car without wrenching the heck out of the car?
HMMM, I GUESS THERE ARE A LOT MORE SC VIPERS OUT THERE. WE HAVE BEAT PRETTY HARD ON OUR TT'S THOUGH INCLUDING STANDING MILE RUNS, OVER 100 1/4 MILE RUNS AND COUNTLESS HIGHWAY ROLL-ONS. WE DROVE ONE CUSTOMER CAR TO AND FROM THE TRACK ABOUT 300 MILES TOTAL. WHEN WE GOT TO THE TRACK WE PUT SOME SLICKS AND SKINNIES ON THE CAR AND MADE A FEW 9 SEC. PASSES INCLUDING A 9.8 @ 156 (10 PSI BOOST WITH 100 SHOT NOS), THEN PUT THE STREET TIRES ON IT AND DROVE IT 150 MILE BACK TO THE SHOP. ASK THE SC GUYS ABOUT HOW THEY LIKE THE IDEA OF HAVING TO TIGHTEN OR REPLACE THEIR BLOWER BELTS FOR MAXIMUM POWER AND PERFORMANCE. NO SMACK OR DISRESPECT, BUT I SUBMIT THAT A WELL BUILT TT IS JUST AS RELIABLE AS ANY WELL BUILT SC IF NOT MORE SO.

I know Gerald has one of the older S/C systems and races and beats on his all the time. I took mine out and broke it in with 7 consecutive races with speeds over 180 MPH, in the desert without any over heating issues, and I beat on it hard (I was racing some of the fastest street bikes around.) I will continue to drive my car very hard, as that is just me. Bottom line, are turbos just as reliable, if not more, than S/C'ers?
CERTAINLY DLM BUILDS A DURABLE PRODUCT. THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER SC VIPERS THAT EITHER RUN HOT OR OVER HEAT FROM OVER SIZED FRONT MOUNTED INTERCOOLERS. SOME SC'S GO TO A SMALLER INTERCOOLER TO RUN COOLER THEN LOSE SOME POWER. OUR TT SYSTEM DOES NOT HAVE TEMPERATURE ISSUES. I HAVE HAD SC VIPER OWNERS RIDE IN OUR TT VIPERS TELL ME THAT OUR TT IS THE COOLEST RUNNING VIPER THEY HAVE EVER RIDEN IN. TODAY'S BALL BEARING TURBOS OFFER LEADING EDGE TECHNOLOGY AND ARE EXTREMELY EFFICIENT, RUN COOL AND HAVE ZERO TURBO LAG.

ULTIMATELY, YOU NEED TO EXPERIENCE A TT VIPER IN ACTION TO UNDERSTAND IT. COME VISIT US IN TEXAS SOMETIME AND I WILL TAKE YOU FOR A 100 MILE TEST DRIVE AND YOU CAN SEE IT ALL FOR YOURSELF. COME IN AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER TOO WHEN ITS 100 DEG.

What advantages do you see to both systems, other than cost?
HMMM, WELL I HAVE BEEN HOOKED ON THE TURBO VIPER PROGRAM FOR ABOUT 3 YEARS NOW. I KNOW THAT THE SC CAN GO VERY QUICK AND FAST LIKE DR. ROOF'S CAR DOES. BUT THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE THAT OFFERS THE LEVEL OF REFINEMENT OF THE TT. ITS QUIET, SMOOTH AND BRUTALLY POWERFUL WHEN YOU WANT IT TO BE. YOU HAVE CONTROL OVER BOOST AND THUS POWER LEVELS. OUTSIDE OF THE DRAGSTRIP IN THE REAL WORLD OF HIGHWAY ROLL ON RUNS, THE TT IS KING. PERIOD. MANNY IF YOU MAKE A TRIP TO HOUSTON FOR A TEST RIDE, I WILL TRY TO FIND A FEW REALLY FAST BUSA'S FOR SOME FUN. YOU CAN VIDEO THE RESULTS FROM THE PASSENGER SEAT IF YOU WANT.

By the way, my car is relatively close in power to the dyno you posted, so I will post mine, and perhaps you can run through it point by point for all of us. Thanks.
JUST A QUICK SCAN OF THE POWER CURVES SHOWS THAT FROM 3800 TO 5000 RPM THE TT HAS A 110-165 RW HP ADVANTAGE AND A 125-170 RW TQ ADVANTAGE. FROM 5000 - 5400 RPM THE TT STILL HAS A SLIGHT EDGE 50-80 RWHP. AND ABOVE 5600 THE SC WITH HEADS/CAM KEEPS PULLING WHERE THE TT JUST CANT GET ALL ITS AIR THRU THE HEADS SINCE THEY ARE STOCK AND SO IS THE CAM. I WILL POST ANOTHER ONE OF OUR DYNO GRAPHS OF A VENOM 1000TT WHICH HAS HEADS AND CAM AND YOU WILL SEE THAT IT KEEPS MAKING POWER UP TIL 6000 RPM JUST LIKE YOURS DOES.

MANNY, YOU GOT A SWEET CAR NO DOUBT. AND YOU GET ALL THE RESPECT FOR GOING OUT AND USING YOUR CAR FOR WHAT IS WAS MEANT FOR. MY COMMENTS ON OUR TT SYSTEMS ARE SIMPLY MEANT TO OFFER GENERAL INFORMATION TO THOSE OUT THERE WHO HAVE NOT PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED A TT VIPER RIDE. SURE, SEEING A TT VIPER RUN AT THE TRACK CAN BE IMPRESSIVE. RIDING IN ONE OR DRIVING ONE IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING.

TM MADE THE COMMENT THAT THE TT IS NO WHERE NEAR ITS POTENTIAL YET. THIS IS SO VERY TRUE. I WILL PREDICT THAT THIS YEAR THERE WILL BE 1-2 TT VIPERS RUNNING IN THE 8'S AT OVER 160 MPH IN THE 1/4 MILE ON BOOST ONLY.
 

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I don't see any reliability problems with the faster power delivery of a turbo.

The two things that do really stress an engine are boost levels and rpms.

If you took a TT car and a SC car where both make 800rwhp at say 13lb boost but the TT car makes it at 5500rpm and the sc car makes it at 6000rpm - my money is on the TT car lasting longer - all other things being equal.

Many problems of both systems stem from poor engine build or installation issues, plus the fact a lot of the hot rod turbo boys used second hand turbos or mis-matched turbos for the application.

Turbo lag is not an issue with a big engine, it is an issue on small engines.

Reality is there should not be reliability issues on either setup if done right and tuned well - turbos regularly do 500,000 miles in trucks at far more boost than a car ever sees. And many SC packages have done thousands of miles without trouble - other than the usual belt issues.

I've done hundreds of thousands of miles on boost and only gone thru 2 turbos - one due to a faulty rebuild, the other had done 125,000 hard miles on same seals.
 
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