[ViperDream]

I need some help. I am a "senior" at Purdue University, and I am starting to work on my senior project and I would like some feedback from this site.

First things first though. I have always loved the Viper and plan on owning one when I am finally earning an income just under what it takes to buy one, but in the mean time I have to earn an education.

My senior project is designing a system that reads the brake rotor temperature and displays it inside the cabin. This is a system that can be used on cars that are autocrossed on weekends, and pick-ups that pull trailors through mountain, as well as anything else. My question to you gentlemen (and ladies) is what is important information to have. That is my only question for now at least.

I am more than willing to tell you more about myself, if you think I am on here just tring to pull the perverbile chain.

Thank you for your time
Josh

 

[Chuck 98 RT10]

There are two types of pyrometers, infrared and probe. Go to www.longacreracing.com for more info.

If this is helpful then set me up with one of those Purdue hoes.

 

[ViperDream]

Although the Purdue hoes are ok, you really want the ones from Ball State. Thoose are the ones that are HOT!!!! What I really need to know is what info is important to the people driving bad ass cars.

Here is a situation. You just dropped an new Roe supercharger onto your car. You take it out to a local back road, and see what it can do. All of the sudden Grandma pulls out in front of you while doing 180+ mph. Because of the great Viper breaking sytem you avoide making grandmas life even shorter, but you have just beaten the hell out of the brakes. During this time, do you want to know: How long you have glazed the brake pads, how long it is going to take to cool the brakes back to a level acceptable to try it again. Do you want Red light to tell you that the rotor is about to come apart from heat. A warning in the brake fluid to tell you when brake fluid is about boil, or just a buzzer to tell you that you should just stop for the day?

I can do anything, but never driving anything this powerful I don't know what is important. You can say anything, and I will try to incorperate it.

Thanks Josh

 

[134]

What year Viper are you talking about.

2001 and 2002's come with ABS

The others have lock them up brakes.

If you are doing 180 and grandma pulls out infront of me I just bought the farm. I just wrecked my car. If she pulls out infront of me a mile away and I see her them I'm ok.

 

[City]

Josh:

Not sure of your project use for daily driving so your example is weak. For track use, however, it might be interesting. Chuck's the right guy to give you an idea of specifics.

 

[ViperDream]

The grandma thing is weak. I am talking on track use, and on trucks pulling trailers. I personally do not own a viper so I am not talking an particular year. The system will work with either ABS or standard braking. Anybody who has ever put a car on a track is who I am looking for. I want to know what do you think about the brakes while on the track. This is really not a project for everyday driving. This is definetly for the select few who actually have to slow down at some point or another.

I am starting to wonder if I should put some kind of electronic gyro on the project, that way I can start predicting what kind of brake temperatures are likely.

Any feedback is helpful, and I thank you for your time.

 

[McGuireV10]

You can buy special heat-sensitive paints and stripe the outer edges of the rotors, then see which paints turn white (which is what they do when they hit their rated temperature) and determine how hot the rotor got. That really just tells you the peak temp, but that is probably the most interesting one as the brakes actually cool down pretty quickly. Probably easier than any electronic system, and certainly cheaper.

Having said that, similar ideas have crossed my mind.

Also, I'd wager the highly experienced drivers who really know their car can pretty accurately estimate the general temperature range of their braking system based on the bite and fade, recent activity, pedal feedback, and other factors. And maybe even the smell. I love the smell of hot brakes... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[_Mark_]

HOLY CRAP!

I'm your man! I'm a '97 Purdue grad, Viper owner, and track rat. Here's what is needed:

1. Rotor Temp
2. Brakepad temp
3. Fluid temp

The reason I want all three is for testing various changes to the car, such as ducting, vents, different pad compounds, fluids, etc.

As far as display, it would be nice if it worked like my SmartTire. The smartTire display is an lcd screen (about 1"x3"). It will show me tire pressure, tire temperature, and also allows me to set a target, a variance, and an alarm. For example, if tire pressure drops below/above my variance setting from the target, it sounds a warning. If it REALLY varies it sounds an alarm.

The same sorta setup for brakes would be killer. It may sound hokie but the smartTire saved me from probably ruining a rim at Buttonwillow cause I somehow managed to get a flat rear tire. The Alarm went off and I made it into the pits and parked with still about 15psi (but it was leaking fast).

Did you know that one of the original 5 or so Automotive Engineers that designed the 92 Viper was a Purdue Grad? The 5 of them got awarded a Viper to share between them at the end of the project. He used to come by and recruit at Purdue and he would drive it onto the Engr. mall.

If you come up with something, I'll test it for you. Then we'll sell it and make a million $. I'll cut you in for 15%.

Oh, and anything you build has to be able to withstand about 2000 deg F.

:thumb:

 

[ViperDream]

I had not even though about brake pad temp, that is a great idea. I am just starting my senior project, so it isn't going to be done until later next year. I am haveing to jump through all the hoops of haveing my idea accepted. I guess I have a couple more questions for you about the setup.

Would predicting temps be of any use, like using a gyrometer to determine acceleration and deceleration?

Is it easier to use a laptop to setup the system or a keypad in cabin. The laptop will allow a graphics based setup process instead of stumbling through menus in car. It will also allow more flexibility with more than one setup, (rotor/pad) combos.

Just out of curiosity what did you get your degree in from PU?
(how do I say this) It gives me satisfaction to know that not long after graduating a Viper is possible :nod:.

2000F should not be to much of a problem(maybe).

Thanks
Josh :nod:

 

[Roadkill]

I suggest a remedial english class prior to focusing on your senior project. Yikes.. :bonk:

 

[KenH]

I think this does sound like an interesting area of exploration for track use. It seems like it would allow a racer to manage their brakes better during the course of a roadrace. The difficulty would appear to be that the main items of possible interest (pad surface temp, rotor surface temp, brake fluid temp in the caliper) would all be pretty hard to tap into for thermal readings and IR would be fairly expensive and perhaps overly complicated to implement. I would assume that the pad and rotor temp would be equivalent, so I am not sure how important it would be to measure both.

 

[McGuireV10]

I would assume that the pad and rotor temp would be equivalent, so I am not sure how important it would be to measure both.

Seems like the big, spinning, ventilated, possibly drilled or slotted rotor would tend to cool a LOT faster than the pad, which has very littled surface area exposed to the air.

I suggest a remedial english class prior to focusing on your senior project.

I'm hoping we get (how do I say this) an "English as a second language" excuse...

 

[_Mark_]

I had not even though about brake pad temp, that is a great idea. I am just starting my senior project, so it isn't going to be done until later next year. I am haveing to jump through all the hoops of haveing my idea accepted. I guess I have a couple more questions for you about the setup.

Would predicting temps be of any use, like using a gyrometer to determine acceleration and deceleration?

Nope, that would be too much info on the track. All I need is the real info right now.

Is it easier to use a laptop to setup the system or a keypad in cabin. The laptop will allow a graphics based setup process instead of stumbling through menus in car. It will also allow more flexibility with more than one setup, (rotor/pad) combos.

The way pretty much all on-board systems start life is by sending data to a laptop, so it would be fine to develop the system that way. Then when you're satisfied, you build a specialized display as a finished product.

Just out of curiosity what did you get your degree in from PU?
(how do I say this) It gives me satisfaction to know that not long after graduating a Viper is possible :nod:.

I got my degree in CS. I had started my first company before I even graduated - not that it made me any money, but once you make the determination to be successful, you start as soon as you can in any way you can.



Fluid doesn't have to sit in the calipers, it can be recirculated to avoid overheating. I know Woodhouse carries this setup - I believe its made by SnakeOyl. At any rate, fluid temp is interesting but would probably only be most useful as a type of alarm letting you know that you had in fact boiled it.

As far as pad and rotor temp goes, I suspect the rotor temp to always be less than pad temp *and* that rotors cool off much quicker than pads. This is all speculation on my part though. The best thing I've seen folks do to date is use a pyrometer like Chuck mentioned - but that involves pulling into the pits after your session, unbuckling, hopping out, and then checking.

I would think this info would be great when you're on track, especially in a race scenario. The problem with cooking your brakes is not the corner in which you cook them - it is the next corner - where you attempt to brake and realize you don't have any. Having the data could let you know before that next turn and take alternate measures. During a longer race, you could know when you need to "relax" for a lap or two in order to let your brakes cool down. This is pretty normal to do, especially when qualifying.

 

[Chuck 98 RT10]

Fluid temp is the most important thing. If it boils your fucked. If there is an area on the caliper behind the piston where you could safely tap into and insert a probe - you got money.

Ah yes. Good ol' Ball U.

 

[CAP]

If it boils your fucked.

Sooooooo.... Have you ever had your fuck boiled? /images/graemlins/supergrin.gif

 

[134]

If it boils your fucked.

Sooooooo.... Have you ever had your fuck boiled? /images/graemlins/supergrin.gif

:atu: :atu: :atu:

Can you tell me how hot that gets????

 

[_Mark_]

Careful NS, Roadkill will post and rip on your grammar.

 

[134]

Careful NS, Roadkill will post and rip on your grammar.

I hate it when I do that!! issed:

 

[ViperDream]

So basically I need to display fluid and rotor inside the cabin. I can handle that. Are the back brakes important. From what I understand on a normal everyday car they carry much less of the brake biasing, but on a autocross car they carrry more. Since they are smaller than the fronts and have more biasing than stock is it important to watch them also?

As far as a display goes, I thought about a bar for each wheel that gave a rough estimate on where the tire temp is. Then when the brake temp reaches a certain point a red light will flash on that tire and buzzer will sound. Thus giving the driver a chance to not destroy the brakes.

Thank you for your time
Josh

 

[_Mark_]

Rotor & Pad & Fluid temp, all 4 wheels.

If you're designing a system, design it for all 4 wheels, cause on a real track car, you dial in as much rear as the track allows. On a street car, the bias isn't adjustable, on a track car (road or autox) the bias is adjustable.

Don't design the display, design the data aquisition. Go to http://www.smartire.com and take a look at their interactive digital display. Thats what I had in mind.

Remember we're talking about going from ambient temp to 2000deg. A bar graph ain't gonna cut it. Anyway, I'll help you with that when the time comes. First work on the system.