[J DAWG]

Sean posted his lastest graph with the 8lb pulley. Not to shabby.

 

[STRYKU]

Nice! I can't wait for Sean to develop a heads and cam package to go along with his supercharger. /images/graemlins/gr_driving3.gif

 

[Jasonmiddletn]

You know no one ever post's the bad stuff about this SC kit! :twocents:

 

[Sgt. Snatch]

You know no one ever post's the bad stuff about this SC kit! :twocents:

haha like how the Vec II fucks up with the ignition being mounted in the engine bay right next to it.....

 

[Jasonmiddletn]

You know no one ever post's the bad stuff about this SC kit! :twocents:

haha like how the Vec II fucks up with the ignition being mounted in the engine bay right next to it.....

You get the idea....

 

[SRT Mike]

Let's talk about this.. I have heard a LOT of bad stuff about the Roe SC kit - why doesn't anyone talk about it?

I have heard of a few engines blowing - I don't know that to be true.

I DO know that not a single owner of his SC kit had their car running right until they took it to a pro for "diagnostics", or had to shell out more $$$ for the VEC 2.

I DO know that if the VEC2 will blow out components because something came loose in the wiring, that there is a design flaw in the circuit of that unit.

Getting away from facts, I personally think using red loctite on the balancer bolt is a totally hokey way of "securing" your balancer. I also don't really see where it fits into the marketplace - isn't it up to $8500-9000 now (when you get the VEC2)??? I think Heffner is around $13k - not THAT much more and heffners cars put >750hp to the WHEELS. The Paxton kit seems to be a much more sorted out kit.

So what have you guys heard or think about the Roe SC kit?

 

[Hog Whisperer]

Crapm Mike! How much is the VEC II ?

 

[SRT Mike]

I was off... I thought the SC kit was $7999, but it's $7500, and I believe the VEC2 is $499 or $599 or so, so it looks like the Roe kit is a bit over $8k. That's un-installed. I'm not sure about the other parts you need like injector "clips" whether they come with the kit or not.

The other thing I dislike about the Roe kit is that he bumps up the voltage on the fuel pump to increase fuel flow. I don't know how much he increases it, but it was designed to operate in the Viper at a given level - bumping that up isn't a good approach, IMO (it IS cheap, but not good).

In that thread over on the morgue, the folks with the Roe kits were basically saying they had spend $10-11k to get it installed and running right, some a lot more. I know that guy in Cali had to take the SC off twice to get it running right and was way into the teens or higher on the money he spent.

For, I believe $14k, and 730+RWHP, it seems like Heffner is a better sorted package, and he solves the fuel delivery and tuning problem.

Nothing against Sean, he's a great guy and I had several of his parts on my car and was satisfied, but it seems this particular product doesn't work on most cars.

 

[Mister Bone]

Can't blame the parts for installer error. Which is most of what is wrong here. I did say most.

Loose wires are causing problems. If you do not solder what do you expect? What are people doing using Scotch Locks? That and piggy back systems are just band-aids anyway. Sometimes they work well but sometimes they do not. It's a crap shoot no matter who's system you use.

With anything of this nature you need to know not only how to install (easy for those with half a brain) but also how to tune. If not you are just doing your best "ricer tuner" impression. Slap it on and hope for the best.

I think it is a good alternative for those who want to do it themselves and know wtf they are doing. Easy enough to go back to stock and not that much $.

Just my :twocents:

 

[SEric]

Dave Weaver has gotten three or four of the Roe S/C kits running and he seems to be quite positive about them. Yes it does seem they need a fair amount of tinkering and tweaking to get them running right. And that business with the S/C kit being one price and then additional bucks for the Vec2 seems bogus. If the thing won't work without the Vec2 then shouldn't it be an integral part of the package?

I haven't heard David say anything but good stuff about them though and he always dyno's his work before he sends it back to the customer.

 

[viper spray]

Dave Weaver has gotten three or four of the Roe S/C kits running and he seems to be quite positive about them. Yes it does seem they need a fair amount of tinkering and tweaking to get them running right. And that business with the S/C kit being one price and then additional bucks for the Vec2 seems bogus. If the thing won't work without the Vec2 then shouldn't it be an integral part of the package?

I haven't heard David say anything but good stuff about them though and he always dyno's his work before he sends it back to the customer.

D. Weaver Will be putting one on my GTS , when I get the $ , headers and 1.7's come first!! :bowdown: This intake will be for sale.

 

[Sgt. Snatch]

Dave Weaver has gotten three or four of the Roe S/C kits running and he seems to be quite positive about them. Yes it does seem they need a fair amount of tinkering and tweaking to get them running right. And that business with the S/C kit being one price and then additional bucks for the Vec2 seems bogus. If the thing won't work without the Vec2 then shouldn't it be an integral part of the package?

I haven't heard David say anything but good stuff about them though and he always dyno's his work before he sends it back to the customer.

D. Weaver Will be putting one on my GTS , when I get the $ , headers and 1.7's come first!! :bowdown: This intake will be for sale.

That's awesome man. I sometimes hang out with David at the shop. Maybe when you get it in you can let me know so I can watch him install another Roe on a Viper. He does damn good work.

 

[SRT Mike]

Can't blame the parts for installer error. Which is most of what is wrong here. I did say most.

Loose wires are causing problems. If you do not solder what do you expect? What are people doing using Scotch Locks? That and piggy back systems are just band-aids anyway. Sometimes they work well but sometimes they do not. It's a crap shoot no matter who's system you use.

With anything of this nature you need to know not only how to install (easy for those with half a brain) but also how to tune. If not you are just doing your best "ricer tuner" impression. Slap it on and hope for the best.

I think it is a good alternative for those who want to do it themselves and know wtf they are doing. Easy enough to go back to stock and not that much $.

Just my :twocents:

Installer error? What is the "error" about plugging in the injectors to your factory harness and then they come loose and your VEC2 granades, requiring it be sent in?

Why would anyone with a brain solder their injectors? You are really saying the connectors should be cut off and hard soldered? I wouldn't do that on my beater Camaro, let alone a Viper.

And there is a difference between a band-aid and a piggyback system. A system that dynamically adjusts to give a good A/F ratio is one thing, bumping voltage beyond design limits to improve fuel flow is quite another. What's not a band-aid then? using a motec? And how do you tune that for cold weather, and what about your factory alarm system? you'd need to keep the factory ECU, so the motec just became another "piggyback".

I think there are just a lot of bugs in the system. And every person in that thread - not a single one of them had no problems... every single kit had "bugs". you are saying they all installed them wrong? I feel bad for Sean - I can imagine how he feels when he releases the product and they start failing. It sucks, but sometimes you just have to deal with it. The price went up and up and up - and when you consider the other stuff you need (and the stuff that is "recommended" like cat-back, etc), the price is probably more than Heffner or Paxton charge for their kit.

We'll see how the paxton kit does once it's released... my guess is alot better than the Roe kit. Just my .02.

 

[Mister Bone]

Installer error? What is the "error" about plugging in the injectors to your factory harness and then they come loose and your VEC2 granades, requiring it be sent in?

You would be shocked at how many people can fuck something as simple as a plug.












Why would anyone with a brain solder their injectors? You are really saying the connectors should be cut off and hard soldered? I wouldn't do that on my beater Camaro, let alone a Viper.

Did not mean or say anything about soldering injector wires or plugs. Does the VEC2 not have other wires that need to be connected? Those are the ones that should be if not plug and play.












And there is a difference between a band-aid and a piggyback system. A system that dynamically adjusts to give a good A/F ratio is one thing, bumping voltage beyond design limits to improve fuel flow is quite another. What's not a band-aid then? using a motec? And how do you tune that for cold weather, and what about your factory alarm system? you'd need to keep the factory ECU, so the motec just became another "piggyback".

If the piggyback "tricks" the ECU then it is a band-aid. Does the Motec run independent of the factory ECU? So then the factory ECU could control other needed things that the Motec does not such as alarm etc?












I think there are just a lot of bugs in the system. And every person in that thread - not a single one of them had no problems... every single kit had "bugs". you are saying they all installed them wrong? I feel bad for Sean - I can imagine how he feels when he releases the product and they start failing. It sucks, but sometimes you just have to deal with it. The price went up and up and up - and when you consider the other stuff you need (and the stuff that is "recommended" like cat-back, etc), the price is probably more than Heffner or Paxton charge for their kit.

How many of those who had problems are experianced enough in the automotive field and up to date on the "proper" way to work on modern autos? I have half a wall covered with papers saying I am. :nod: I see Larry Macedo doing a great job with them as well as others.

I still myself would not bitch about the price. Try buying some turbos, piggybacks, and the other assorted stuff you need just to upgrade my car. Makes the Viper parts seem cheap by comparison..

Come on Mike, what am I missing here? Fill me in. :nod:








We'll see how the paxton kit does once it's released... my guess is alot better than the Roe kit. Just my .02.

 

[Smokin]

Installer error? What is the "error" about plugging in the injectors to your factory harness and then they come loose and your VEC2 granades, requiring it be sent in?

You would be shocked at how many people can fuck something as simple as a plug.












Why would anyone with a brain solder their injectors? You are really saying the connectors should be cut off and hard soldered? I wouldn't do that on my beater Camaro, let alone a Viper.

Did not mean or say anything about soldering injector wires or plugs. Does the VEC2 not have other wires that need to be connected? Those are the ones that should be if not plug and play.












And there is a difference between a band-aid and a piggyback system. A system that dynamically adjusts to give a good A/F ratio is one thing, bumping voltage beyond design limits to improve fuel flow is quite another. What's not a band-aid then? using a motec? And how do you tune that for cold weather, and what about your factory alarm system? you'd need to keep the factory ECU, so the motec just became another "piggyback".

If the piggyback "tricks" the ECU then it is a band-aid. Does the Motec run independent of the factory ECU? So then the factory ECU could control other needed things that the Motec does not such as alarm etc?












I think there are just a lot of bugs in the system. And every person in that thread - not a single one of them had no problems... every single kit had "bugs". you are saying they all installed them wrong? I feel bad for Sean - I can imagine how he feels when he releases the product and they start failing. It sucks, but sometimes you just have to deal with it. The price went up and up and up - and when you consider the other stuff you need (and the stuff that is "recommended" like cat-back, etc), the price is probably more than Heffner or Paxton charge for their kit.

How many of those who had problems are experianced enough in the automotive field and up to date on the "proper" way to work on modern autos? I have half a wall covered with papers saying I am. :nod: I see Larry Macedo doing a great job with them as well as others.

I still myself would not bitch about the price. Try buying some turbos, piggybacks, and the other assorted stuff you need just to upgrade my car. Makes the Viper parts seem cheap by comparison..

Come on Mike, what am I missing here? Fill me in. :nod:








We'll see how the paxton kit does once it's released... my guess is alot better than the Roe kit. Just my .02.

Jerome,
I need to address your comments about the "piggyback computer". Do you have any idea how much cost and complexity that a standalone computer adds? Unless a unit like the "to be released" AEM computer hits the market, any other system is simply cost prohibitive. There have been rumors of this comptuer for quite some time, but it has yet to hit the market and has yet to prove itself on the viper. I have had full drag race turbo cars that ran Motec M4 Engine management systems. Although they had tremendous tunability simple items you take for granted such as cold start idle became difficult items to put into play. Imagine paying someone to rewire EVERYTHING in your car. Every sensor, every injector. Everything from the crank sensor to the ignition coil. You are talking a ton of labor and you sure as shit better know what you are doing, otherwise its thousands in labor or a fucked up electrical system of montrous porportions. Then add in the cost of a $4K computer plus all the sensors and CHA-CHING!!! You may ask, what about other computers? They might be a little less expensive than the Motec, but will they work? Accel DFI may save you a thousand or two, but its still not easy to install, and it costs MANY TIMES the cost of a piggyback. Im not sure an Accel DFI can even trigger a 10 CYL, and it has its own issues with the crank teeth, etc.

Another thing is how you automatically assumed that EVERYONE with problems/issues who has one of these systems was lacking in the techichal "know how" arena. I know that some of those who installed these systmes on their own cars were very knowledgeable technically. I think its very naive to assume that everyone who had injector problems or a similar problem was merely "moronic" and missed pushing in the plugs correctly. The fact that some people are even changing injector plugs/clips indicates that there was another issue. Also how are you so sure that the issues with a VEC2 boil down to just a solering of connections? Although I have not worked on a VEC2 I have worked on a Roe Supercharged Viper. Have you? Are you qualified to comment on this discussion as a knowledgeable source if you havent had first or even second hand experience? Sean has obviously worked out many of the issues, and no one is complaining about the price. But mike IS comparing the price relative to other tuners in the market. So without saying that Sean did anything wrong, I think we can say that Mike has raised some very valid questions.

 

[Mister Bone]

Smoke point well taken. And Mike does have some valid points also.

Stand alones are big $ but if you want to do it "right" it will cost.

I never meant to infer that all those who did the install were incompetent, just this may have been beyond what some were lead to believe as a simple "bolt on" system.

I have no first hand knowledge, just going by what I have read and "heard".

I am just trying to keep a technical discussion going as it seems that they are far and few in between at the Alley. So some of my comments may have been worded to "stir the pot" and keep this going. No digs or pointing fingers or calling anyone incompetent for that matter. Just stirring...

 

[SRT Mike]

Jerome,

By your definition, many of the other kits on the market are not infact piggyback computers. And there is a differnece between something that intelligently controls fuel flow, and cranking up voltage on the pump and using bigger injectors to get a better A/F ratio. Look at Doug Levin's A/F ratios on his SC cars - they are just about perfect. I have heard great things about Heffner here too. I've heard several folks talk about 10.5:1 A/F ratios after installing their Roe kit - which is way off. An A/F ratio is something you need to look at across the board - you can't quote a number, it's how the curve looks that matters. If it spikes to 16:1 for a second before it corrects, that's bad. I would say the proof is in the results. If you consider something to be a "band aid" that works perfectly in all weather conditions, then I guess band-aids work great. I don't think you could get a motec system running that good - because you can't do all the testing the factory guys do - like cold weather, high-altitude, humid, dry, heat-soak, etc, etc. So your "preferred" solution would probably cost way more and run like shit on most of the SC cars we're talking about.

The VEC2 does have other wires - but it plugs in-line with your factory harness. The only way you're going to solder those wires is by cutting the plug off your factory ECU. Also, this is one area where you can't educate me, bro /images/graemlins/smile.gif I buy tens of thousands of connectors of various brands every couple of months. I talk to the reps at these companies, I see the data on how they work and under what conditions they work. I have, right now, thousands of my products being used in the market with plugs I buy, in everything from cars, to drag bikes, to ATV's and more. I personally handle returns, and I check them myself, so I see all the failures and I examine why they happened, including stress tests on the wires, looking at crimps under a 'scope and checking crimp tension, etc, etc. I can tell you that if those plugs are falling out, there is a problem. There are connectors that are designed for automotive use, and they WILL NOT come undone. When's the last time a correctly installed factory sensor just "came loose". It happens, but it's very rare, considering the miles and vibration in a car - that's because the connector is designed for that. So, if connectors are coming loose on a BUNCH of cars - then either the connector is defective, or it was not designed to work in the application it's being used in. You are 100% wrong that soldering is preferable. It's not even close to preferable in this application. Partly because you want to be able to remove the wires, but also I'd venture to guess that most folks would have MORE problems with soldered wires than they would with properly selected and crimped connectors. So soldering ANY wires would be a bad idea. Now, why are so many people having problems? Why would you need to buy some special clips to hold your injector plugs on? The factory wires don't need clips - so if the Roe kit requires clips, it means there is a difference that causes that kit to be more problem prone. how is that a good thing? How is that acceptable? It's not. Yes, I know all too well how people can screw up something as simple as plugging in a connector, but when the manufacturer tells you to buy a clip to hold the plug together, it's pretty clear that there is a recognized problem they are trying to correct, right?

The next step in idiocy of this thing, is that if the clip comes loose, the VEC2 will try to drive the injector anyway, and "fry" the VEC2. You can work it out - clips that are prone to falling out, combined with a unit that will blow components if they come loose is a recipe for disaster. I have a good idea (since I do electronics design work) as to why the VEC2 fries, and it's a rookie design flaw. I don't think Sean designed that box, but whoever did forgot a couple of components that would make it bulletproof. Shame on them, and I feel bad for Sean having to deal with supporting that problem.


As for the people who experienced the problems... how about this. There was a thread on .org, and *every single* person who chimed in was reporting problems. Every single one. Not ONE person said "Worked fine for me!". Is it really everyone ELSE'S fault? It seems like, only after getting VEC2's and/or having a professional "tune" the car, does it run right. Yes, pro help can be important, but if you NEED someone to "tune" your car, then it's not really a plug-n-play self-install kit, is it? And what did the "tuning" involve? Besides replacing wires, checking error codes and the like - what was involved? Because I know guys who really know their shit that could not get their cars running right. I know guys who went to very well known Viper techs and they could not get their car running until Sean provided things like the VEC2 and programs to let it run. So how is that a well put together comprehensive kit? Again, it's not. What if these guys with their cards in their VEC2's want to go for a drive through the mountains - will their cars run like ass without some special "card"? I dunno.

Bottom line is that the REAL deal on a Roe kit, as far as I can tell, is over $8,000, and most of the folks on that thread said they had spend $10-11k or more, even more when you consider tuning time. That buys you a totally band-aid fuel management system (just MHO though - I'd never EVER overdrive a fuel pump to get it pumping more fuel and a piggyback computer that shits the bed if a wire comes loose is very bad, IMO). It also gets you a crank that isn't keyed, but rather loctite'd together. Furthermore these cars don't seem to really be able to run any more boost without some major work. And the cars make, what 530 or so to the wheels? $10k for 100RWHP doesn't seem like that good of a deal to me, especially since the car basically has no further upgrade path unless you spend an additional wad on a heads+cam package.

I think the Heffner cars are about $14k, and that buys you a completely hassle-free, professionaly tuned vehicle with a very well sorted out computer, sorted out A/F ratios, a keyed crank, the ability to run more boost if you like, and 700+RWHP for your $14k. Since Jason's price is a delivered-totally-working price, and Sean's is a "might need it tuned and probably should have headers and exhaust and TB's and some more out the door more like $11k" price, I don't see the value.

You can fab up some custom turbo headers, buy a couple of used turbos, some BOV's and a fuel pump and build your own turbo car for $10k. And you can either buy an off-the-shelf engine management system for a grand or so, or do what I did and build your own (not that hard if you know what you're doing). I also put in a 4L80 transmission, a highly-lightened valvetrain and alot of other stuff - cost me about $12k. Not done yet (still need to machine bracketry) but the car I am copying made 1100RWHP on the dyno. I'm hoping to do about the same. But I wanted to do it all myself.

 

[MbnViper]

Roe S/C runs great here with zero problems, and guess what /images/graemlins/supergrin.gif my first mod ever headers and Exhaust. So its my second mod ever and i was so scared when i heard some guys talking about there viper tech and so, i said to my self there is no way i can do this my self,well guess what i did it and Sean really meant it when he said its "Easy DO It YoursSelf Installation" i did had some problems but its all my side..lol.. but the S/c and other parts are great and organized, driving the car for sometime now no problems just one /images/graemlins/frown.gif i need
more money and more money and more money buying tires /images/graemlins/supergrin.gif hmm someone was talking about Roe S/c owners spending more money right ? i guess he meant this.lol. also Sean and how he treat his customers, i have to thank him for his support and his patience answering my questions all the times,see its not just the S/C its all in one, the Tuner,The Kit,The work,And the support. from my standing point i can tell Sean did a great work by letting us viper owners install and upgrade our vipers, plus it runs as advertised (100+ Roe S/C owners out there :thumb: )

 

[Mister Bone]

Mike thanks for taking the time to write that chapter for me, really. /images/graemlins/laughing.gif The way to learn is to listen first then discuss, and that is what I am doing.

While I am not going to rebut all that you had to say, I don't have that much patience to type all of it, I will just say a few things.

First is that anyone can fuck up anything, no one is perfect. Viper tech or no Viper tech, if you have no experience with the system (or any supercharger) you can screw it up.

Second is that maybe those injector plugs need clips after being removed. Cheap design maybe? Don't know as I do not have one to look at. Do the newer Vipers have these from the factory now? I thought I read that they do...

As far as soldering, that is only for wire ends with no plugs on them. I do not know if or how many wires on the VEC2 come that way. Yes plugs are best, but I do not have knowledge of how it (VEC2) comes.

I know you know your shit, I am just trying to hold a conversation and discuss this, that's all.

 

[onerareviper]

1.) The price is $7,495, AND INCLUDES THE VEC2.

2.) Some issues did exist initially (VEC2 tuning, Injectors connection coming loose, electrical ground problems), but all seem to be resolved. Sean actually produced a amendment to the original installation guide that goes through all these issues, so people can take the appropriate step during installation to avoid post-installation problems.

3.) Per Sean's website - FAQ section:

I hear the stock crankshaft hub is not keyed. Does it have to be keyed?

A. The Viper crankshaft and balancer hub are not keyed from the factory. This in itself is not a problem as long as the bolt remains at factory torque (250 ft/lbs). The Supercharger installation instructions call for the installer to use red Loctite on the bolt and torque to factory specs. We have had no balancers come off when this procedure is followed. For further security, we have created a tool, which allows the installer to pin the crankshaft and hub together, available as a separate item.

** The tool cost $59.95, but I'm sure many installers of this kit already have this item.

4.) Personally, I could care less about dyno numbers. Here's what I do know.... At 5 psi, headers/exhaust/tires, people are running mid to high 10's at 130+ MPH. This is with no Turbo/SC lag - Instant full boost. To get those same times with another vendor, you are spending MUCH MUCH more money, excluding nitrous. Sean's kit makes mega HP/Torque in the low-mid RPM's, so don't just look at peak HP numbers. That's why I prefer to look at 1/4 mile #'s, instead of peak dyno #'s. Not to mention you don't race on a dyno.

5.) True cost to run mid-high 10's with Roe Blower. $7,500 S/C, $500 to install/tune, approx. $2,500 for exhaust/headers, $750 tires and other misc. stuff. So figure anywhere for $10,000 - $11,000. I don't think any other SC can match the 1/4 mile times for that kind of money. Especially on a cast-piston car, which this blower is safe to use with at 5 psi.