Dodge SRT Viper Forums : ViperAlley banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
693 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
To date the mods on the car are; Borla exhaust (no cats), K&N/Smooth tubes (no power gain), under drive pulley 25%, AEM unit.

For about 3 months now I have been driving around on the base map that comes with the AEM unit thinking that there was not much point to tuning on such a lightly modded car. After all the car felt fantastic, ran cool, smooth, etc...

But being the dyno junkie that I am, the urge kept nagging me to go and find out just what the AEM unit could do on my car, since the majority on the forums feels there is no gain on a light modded/stock car.

The tuning was done with daily drivability/poor quality California gas (91 octane) in mind. Could there be even more power to be gained? Yes, no doubt but with best grade of 91 octane being available around here doing so would be destructive.

First image shows the comparison of pulls; 26 pull shows one of the best factory ECU pulls which at 437.7 hp is fantastic on this particular dyno, stock viper make 396-404 here. Pull 27 is the base AEM map which was made on a 97gts stock I believe, and is the map I have driving around on. You can see significant gains over the best factory ECU. Now this is where it gets interesting, 32 is the last pull we made after some fine tweaking of the AEM unit for my lightly modded car (corvette guys would say stock).

The AEM unit allowed the car to make 452.5 hp and 508lb's of torque; this is at the WHEELS people.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/showphoto.php/photo/8911/size/big/sort/1/cat/516

This image is the only 3 tuning pulls we needed to make; yes you read that right took 3 pulls to fantastic tune. Most of the gains were seen in pull 30, but a bit of fine tweaking instead of broad adjustment got us over the 450 mark.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/showphoto.php/photo/8910/size/big/sort/1/cat/516

The best torque this car ever made with the factory ECU was 471lb's, and horsepower was 437.7. Both of which were NOT achieved on the same pull. The AEM unit allowed 15rwhp and 40 lb's torque gain. Notice the gain is not just peak numbers, it is all across the power band and the hp gains and torque gains in different parts of the RPM band are even greater than peak.

Now I suspect the many of you out there that have my mods along with some others like headers, rockers might be able to realize 500hp at the wheels and only God knows how much torque.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,501 Posts
rwhp, I highly disagree with you. I wouldn't let "any dyno operator worth a damn" touch my car let alone my AEM. I've been running an AEM for 2 years now and let me tell you, spend the money to get a good tuner (www.tuningconcepts.com) dial in your car. This is a standalone system people, it's EASY to make a minor mistake that can have catastrophic results (blown motor). All the big dogs (RSI, Hennessey, etc...) use Tuning Concepts, they use them for a reason... Just my 0.02
Peter
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,012 Posts
where is the best place to get the AEM?

is tuningconcpets working in conjunction with the AEM supplier? are they the same entity?

im seriously considering the aem as the vec2 just hasnt lived up to much IMO. so far ive found it not worth a thousand bucks. im sure if i had a roe blower id feel differently but for NA and NA w/nitrous it is not doing well and is giving some frustrating problems


alot of us are going crazy with this thing. im ready to try something else
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,903 Posts
houstonT said:
rwhp, I highly disagree with you. I wouldn't let "any dyno operator worth a damn" touch my car let alone my AEM. I've been running an AEM for 2 years now and let me tell you, spend the money to get a good tuner (www.tuningconcepts.com) dial in your car. This is a standalone system people, it's EASY to make a minor mistake that can have catastrophic results (blown motor). All the big dogs (RSI, Hennessey, etc...) use Tuning Concepts, they use them for a reason... Just my 0.02
Peter
Sooooo, What do you do everytime you make a change ? Spend another grand flying someone in ? No slam....I'm just asking, I make lots of changes. Is it alot harder than f.a.s.t. to tune ? I could see getting the first tune professionally done.....then the tweaking from there shouldn't be "impossible" without the guru ?????
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
693 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
TheRedFlash said:
...The AEM unit allowed 15rwhp and 40 lb's torque gain.


Soooo that's 15rwhp for like $2900?
(plus the cost of the dyno time)

No thanks /images/graemlins/sad
Depends on how you look at it, for the price you get many things one of which is 15rwhp and 40lb's torque.

Much cooler running car, mine stays rock solid at ~195 instead of the up and down temp fest.

My gas millage has gone from 10-11 to 16-17, and driving style has not changed.

Tracktion control, is priceless in my book especialy on cars making enough torque to make diesels jealous.

2 wide band o2 sensors included, which makes any tunning great.

And many many more things.

Is it cheap, course not but it is a verifiable gain not just hype. In Viper terms $2900.00 is the cost of a good set of headers, which will not give you the same gains.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
693 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
houstonT said:
rwhp, I highly disagree with you. I wouldn't let "any dyno operator worth a damn" touch my car let alone my AEM. I've been running an AEM for 2 years now and let me tell you, spend the money to get a good tuner (www.tuningconcepts.com) dial in your car. This is a standalone system people, it's EASY to make a minor mistake that can have catastrophic results (blown motor). All the big dogs (RSI, Hennessey, etc...) use Tuning Concepts, they use them for a reason... Just my 0.02
Peter
The AEM viper base map is very good, and any good tunner can make the needed adjustments. I agree if your car is being pushed to limits, a tuning specialist is needed but in this case there is no need.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
Since you do dyno every change, how much horsepower were the underdrive pulleys worth? Which pulleys did you switch?I'd opt for 60hp heads or something before I went to anyone's aftermarket computer, myself. A VEC2 will give you good gains for 1/3 the price. /images/graemlins/smiles
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,988 Posts
TheRedFlash said:
Since you do dyno every change, how much horsepower were the underdrive pulleys worth? Which pulleys did you switch?I'd opt for 60hp heads or something before I went to anyone's aftermarket computer, myself. A VEC2 will give you good gains for 1/3 the price. /images/graemlins/smiles
You should look into the AEM unit a little more and you'll see its advantages over a piggy back fuel controller.

Eddie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
A brief intro:

My name is Scott Armish, the Application Engineer at AEM responsible for the development of the Dodge Viper EMS.

A few of you have posted some good comments about needing a professional tuner for this kind of work, etc. This really depends on the individual owner. Users of our EMS systems generally fall into one of three catagories:

1. Don't care about tuning, don't want to learn, just want to pay someone else to make my car scary fast. Don't want to worry about it afterwards.

2. Willing to pay someone for the initial tuning, but teach me the basics at the same time so I don't have to bring it back and spend more $ every time I feel a little hiccup while driving.

3. Don't trust anyone to touch my car. I will do all the tuning no matter how long it takes to learn the system. I want to be responsible for the results. I want to learn how to get every last possible horsepower out of this thing.

You can fall into any one of these catagories and be happy with the results regardless of your level of mods but for the most part, those that fall into catagories 2 and 3 are AEM's best possible customers.

There is one difference we've noticed in the Viper community though. There is a group of well known shops that service the high performance needs of these cars. More so than some of AEM's supported applications, these Viper tuners are really dedicated to Vipers and to the customers who own them. These cars represent a different level and the shops understand that...especially when it comes to tuning.

AEM has had the pleasure of working with a few of these shops throughout the development of this system. All seem willing to go the extra mile when it comes to performance combined with drivability. That's the biggest advantage to the AEM EMS. You CAN have both. There aren't very many limitations.

So what does all this mean? Regardless of what kind of customer you are, because you have the advantage of a dedicated tuner network, you can take advantage of this system's capabilities regardless of your level of mods. Are you a tinkerer? Are you interested in learning about fuel injection tuning? Even better. The sky's the limit.

Scott
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,903 Posts
Thanks for the info scotta. Welcome to the board.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
693 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
TheRedFlash said:
Since you do dyno every change, how much horsepower were the underdrive pulleys worth? Which pulleys did you switch?I'd opt for 60hp heads or something before I went to anyone's aftermarket computer, myself. A VEC2 will give you good gains for 1/3 the price. /images/graemlins/smiles
TheRedFlash,

The underdrive pulley is only the one 25% crank pulley, and its worth 3-5hp at the wheels. Its very difficult to measure such a small gain but after numerous runs and comparing graphs from old to new you can see it.

Problem with Vipers is they are a speed density system, and any major flow improvements like a set of heads cant be compensated for by the factory system. Meaning if you have a set of heads giving you 60hp your car is now running extreemly out of tune, and may be prone to detonation. Not to mention the fact that if you gained 60rwhp from those heads untuned the gains after tuning would be major.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
Problem with Vipers is they are a speed density system, and any major flow improvements like a set of heads cant be compensated for by the factory system. Meaning if you have a set of heads giving you 60hp your car is now running extreemly out of tune, and may be prone to detonation. Not to mention the fact that if you gained 60rwhp from those heads untuned the gains after tuning would be major.I understand the point, but I know someone personally who gained 80hp from his last dyno run after adding expensive ported heads and rockers; with no tuning. He didn't have any VECs to tune with. Vipers are known to be rich at WOT as set from the factory aren't they? Then there'd be some additional richness already there waiting for additional air. Add in the fact that the heads improve flow downstream of the injectors, there may be enough improvement in wet flow to add to the total. The ported heads aid exhaust flow as well of course, Just as Belanger headers would add a substantial amount to pre-creampuff engines with no additional tuning, it is possible to extract hidden HP without further tuning. Though subsequent tuning would surely be worth the trip... /images/graemlins/smiles
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,282 Posts
RWHP

great post - thanks for the heads up on your results. It is a great acheivement and shows that if you are prepared to spend the time in fine tuning, the results from going to an AEM can be had even on a mild engine.

Few will get such big gains by going to an AEM on a mild combo because everyone's engines are slightly different - but this is proof there are gains to be had if you spend the time - espcially in fattening the power curve - which is what you will FEEL - not just adding peak power (which you may not necessarily feel).

Yes you could bolt on power without AEM or Motec - most of the tuners have done without either for years - but you can't beat a finely tuned setup, and AEM offers a tunability the cheaper alternatives can't. The tuners that are ignoring this are already behind, and the gap will grow until they either catch up, find an alternative as good (nothing available as yet for that price) or people eventually start to ask "what ever happened to <fill in the blank>; they used to be a legend?"

:nod:
:nod:

products like AEM are the future like it or not. The only thing that will slow down this evolution will be for the factories to start releasing fully programable ECU's - and given DC's past dedication to making aftermarket modifications difficult - that would take a huge swing in internal politics that I hardly think the present administration has the balls for.... afterall, they fired the one leader they had who demonstrated great vision, and lost Lutz to GM before that...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,501 Posts
1TONY1 - my comments about getting a professional to initially help you tune your car were more geared towards things such as tip in, driveability, tuning at various boost levels (for us turbo guys), etc... For example, if I modify my car in such a way that it's going to make more power, I know how to use my boost correct table to add fuel across the board at all boost levels. I know how to make timing adjustments, etc... I would say that initially I would recommend getting a professional to set your car up. As with any stand alone, making a stupid mistake can lead to a catastrophic failure, there are intricasies (sp?) that are unique to the AEM that you might not be familiar with unless you have some experience with the software. If you are comfortable doing it yourself, then go for it, but don't be surprised when you end up having to call for help as the AEM isn't as "plug n play" as they make it sound.
Peter
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,903 Posts
houstonT said:
1TONY1 - my comments about getting a professional to initially help you tune your car were more geared towards things such as tip in, driveability, tuning at various boost levels (for us turbo guys), etc... For example, if I modify my car in such a way that it's going to make more power, I know how to use my boost correct table to add fuel across the board at all boost levels.
That answered my question. No where did I say it was easy or that I knew (right now) how to use it.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top