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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just wanted to say it got off to a ruff start this weekend. We came down to put the most All BLOWER hp#s down and we fell like we got cheated and we did in a way. It was not by water injection it was by a bum Dyno reading. I talked to Larry tonight and he finally checked out what I have been saying all along. LARRY said Dr. Roofs hp#s were off 130 rwhp. That right 130 rwhp to high. He told me he will post his new results. I think the problems started there when I asked Dr. to back up his #s and he would not do it after looking at the results of a weird Dyno sheet. I own a Dyno-Jet and I know what the sheet looks like when they mess up. Oh well its in the past but the truth has come out. To the people that think im making a big deal out of this just remember all this crap Matt caught when he first listed his Dyno #s.

Also there were some people that were asking me what happened to the 900 rwhp. I asked my self the same question. After we got it back up on the Dyno and made some fuel adjustments we got it back to 825 rwhp. We were still about 75 rwhp off. But check out his comparison. DR. Roof had stated that the last time he dynoed he made 850. Well, on Larry's Dyno he made around only 780 rwhp. He was off about the same amount we were. It was just that thick Florida air we were having that day that through us off.

Not trying to rub it in or anything just wanted the truth to come out and it has. He should post when he gets the time to if not ask him for your self he will be able to explain.
 

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so what are you saying? simplify it please
 

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You are never going to convince ANYONE that water is a power adder. IT'S WATER, thats like saying because someone uses a different oil other than stock it is a PA. You can keep saying it, but it won't make it anymore right.
 

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Bottle heaters are also a power adder when using Nitrous too. Using race gas at the track is also another power adder. :nod:
 

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I think what he is trying to say is the SAE corrected for Blowngts was 827RWHP and uncorrected was 824RWHP. Dr roof SAE corrected was 913RWHP and uncorrected was 780RWHP. He is saying that the dyno correction factor was screwed up. If the dyno corrected 130+ RWHP on Dr roofs then why did blowngts only correct 5RWHP? He is saying the correction factor on roofs is messed up and if the numbers above are correct then I would have to agree.
 

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NATE said:
You are never going to convince ANYONE that water is a power adder. IT'S WATER, thats like saying because someone uses a different oil other than stock it is a PA. You can keep saying it, but it won't make it anymore right.
Actually, water injection allows more timing, boost and other factors that add power.
 

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DChan415 said:
NATE said:
You are never going to convince ANYONE that water is a power adder. IT'S WATER, thats like saying because someone uses a different oil other than stock it is a PA. You can keep saying it, but it won't make it anymore right.
Actually, water injection allows more timing, boost and other factors that add power.
What he said.
 

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DChan415 said:
NATE said:
You are never going to convince ANYONE that water is a power adder. IT'S WATER, thats like saying because someone uses a different oil other than stock it is a PA. You can keep saying it, but it won't make it anymore right.
Actually, water injection allows more timing, boost and other factors that add power.
:stupid:
 

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It's obvious both of these cars are very closely matched despite the wacky dyno numbers because of the very close times.....(9.6x vs. 9.7x)
 

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NATE said:
I agree, but the water is not the Power Adder, it just makes the Power Adder work more efficiently.
I can't agree with you there; anything added on top of pure boost, is IMO, a power adder. How can you say that it's not?
 

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Clint, here's a thought..

Is an intercooler a poweradder then? What about a HI Po air cleaner?

G
 

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Gerald said:
Clint, here's a thought..

Is an intercooler a poweradder then? What about a HI Po air cleaner?

G
all those are power adders if they increase the h.p or tq. But in a drag racing event, a power adder is described as either a Turbo, Supercharger, or Nitrous. So the answer is no, water is not classified a power adder when used in a drag racing event. It may help boost power , but it is not the main driving force that is creating the power.

Its really simple, yet difficult to explain but the point should be getting across to everyone, this is how drag racing events classify "power adders".
 

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Gerald said:
Clint, here's a thought..

Is an intercooler a poweradder then? What about a HI Po air cleaner?

G
I'm saying that anything on top of a conventional boost setup (including intercooler) is a power-adder. Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting what happened, but leaving all that discussion behind, water injection is creating more power from a SINGLE power adder bolted onto a stock motor. I don't see how it can be interpreted any differently.

BTW, did you get my message /images/graemlins/supergrin.gif?
 

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Not that i care a rats ass one way or other, but to stoke the flames a bit.. a article i came across seems to support that water injection does more than just cool, but can act as power adder as well ie: water does not act as an inert substance that only provides cooling to the engine/fuel.. notice discussions of use of water injection in conjunction with a supercharger.


Let us take a quick look at ignition. Those who have a Heywood can look it up
- mines on <a href="http://get-certified.net?go=loan" onmouseover="window.status = 'goto: loan';return 1" onmouseout="window.status=''">loan</a> so going by memory. The first thing that happens is a plasma
cloud is formed by the arc consisting of super heated electron stripped atoms.
When this cloud "explodes" a ball of high energy particles is shot outward.


The highest energy particles are the hydrogen atoms - and they penetrate the
charge about 5 times as far as the rest of the particles. As they lose energy
and return to normal temps - about 5000 k - they begin to react chemically
with any surrounding fuel and oxygen particles. The effectiveness of spark
ignition is directly related to the availability of free hydrogen. Molecules
containing tightly bound hydrogen such as methanol, nitromethane, and methane
are far more difficult to ignite than those with less bonds.


During combustion - water - H2O ( present and formed ) is extremely active in
the oxidation of the hydrocarbon. The predominate reaction is the following:


OH + H ==> H2O
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
Loop to top and repeat.


The OH radical is the most effective at stripping hydrogen from the HC
molecule in most ranges of combustion temperature.


Another predominate process is the HOO radical. It is more active at lower
temperatures and is competitive with the H2O2 at higher temps.


OO + H ==> HOO
HOO + H ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH


This mechanism is very active at both stripping hydrogen from the HC and for
getting O2 into usable combustion reactions.


Next consider the combustion of CO. Virtually no C ==> CO2. Its a two step
process. C+O ==> CO. CO virtually drops out of early mid combustion as the O
H reactions are significantly faster and effectively compete for the available
oxygen.

Then consider that pure CO and pure O2 burns very slowly if at all. Virtually
the only mechanism to complete the oxidization ( Glassman - Combustion Third
Edition ) of CO ==> CO2 is the "water method".


CO + OH ==> CO2 + H
H + OH ==> H20
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
goto to top and repeat.


This simple reaction accounts for 99% + of the conversion of CO to CO2. It is
important in that fully two thirds of the energy of carbon combustion is
released in the CO ==> CO2 process and that this process occurs slow and late
in the combustion of the fuel. Excess water can and does speed this
conversion - by actively entering into the conversion process thru the above
mechanism.


The peak flame temperature is determined by three factors alone - the energy
present and released, the total atomic mass, and the atomic ratio - commonly
called CHON for Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen. The chemical
reactions in combustion leading to peak temperature are supremely indifferent
to pressure. The temperatures and rates of normal IC combustion are
sufficient to cause most of the fuel and water present to be dissociated and
enter into the flame.


As can be seen above, water is most definitily not only not inert but is a
very active and important player in the combustion of hydrocarbon fuel.
Ricardo and others have documented that under certain conditions ( normally
supercharged ) water can replace fuel up to about 50% and develop the same
power output, or that the power output can be increased by up to 50% addition
of water. This conditions were investigated by NACA and others for piston
aircraft engines. It is important to note that these improvements came at the
upper end of the power range where sufficient fuel and air was available to
have an excess of energy that could not be converted to usable pressure in a
timely manner.


As a side note - Volvo recently released some SAE papers documenting the use
of cooled EGR to both reduce detonation and return to a stoic mixture under
boost in the 15 psi range - while maintaining approximately the same power
output. Notice - they reduced fuel and still get the same power output.


When you consider that EGR consists primarily of nitrogen, CO2, and water ( to
the tune of about two gallons formed from each gallon of water burned ), you
might draw the conclusion that it also was not "inert". They peaked their
tests at about 18% cooled EGR - which would work out to about 36% water
injection and got about the same results under similar conditions that the
early NACA research got."
 

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I agree with John H . forget the the damn dyno a 9.70 proves you have a fast car. All the rest is crap. I don't think it was right to skirt the rules. I think a big appology is in order. But a 9.7 is a fast car. The new paxton set up makes it more than possible
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Could not have put it better my self. I should have not even said anything about the water injection. The only reason I made a big deal about it is that people were accusing us of using it to get those big Dyno #s on a stock motor set up. I wanted to use it on his car. We have gotten about 15% power increases on the mustangs. When I talked to other members on this board and people in the Viper community they said DON'T do it if you want to stay as a boost only set up.

As far as the Dyno Shoot-out I know its not a big deal but I knew it was way off on DR. Roofs. Be honest if yall were in my shoes would you have not spoke up if there were a CLEAR mistake? I needed to prove I was not making it up. You would have to see what I saw on the sheet HP-TQ-A/F. I can assure you talking to Dynojet the uncorrected #s are accurate.

Im sorry I came across the wrong way with some of the other racers. You have to see my point in all this. I had several people come up to me and said DR. Roof said blown GTS was A TIME-BOMB!! and would never go 9s. I know the people that herd it do not want to get involved and post what they herd and its ok im ready for it to be over with. Not to bring more crap up but with comparing how are day went with are car we did not do anything but change air pressure in our tires. Its better than I can say for DR. Roof. His rockers were trying to fall off. It was nice of Jason to tighten them up for him. I wonder what else might be lose in that motor?? I know he's glad that it did not happen on the high way with no one there to fix it for him.

Also thanks for all the complements on the ETS and Dyno #s for the stock motor, no headers GTS. Im glad we got it to the track and shown that it was not a ticking time bomb and that it could make 9 second passes. Even though I have been disqualified from the Viper national for the season for a reason no more then putting a car in my name so I could make some passes that we drove 10 hours for. Penalty is a little stiff I think and from what I herd and others think the same. I think it is more of a competition thing as others tell me also. We will be back and we will be much faster. Sorry for the long POST.
 

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Not to bring more crap up but with comparing how are day went with are car we did not do anything but change air pressure in our tires. Its better than I can say for DR. Roof. His rockers were trying to fall off. It was nice of Jason to tighten them up for him. I wonder what else might be lose in that motor?? I know he's glad that it did not happen on the high way with no one there to fix it for him.
That should help smooth things over. :ugh:
 
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