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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,

Check out MotoIQ's newest Project Car: Viper GTS - Part 1 History & Intro.

While many of you already know the history of the Viper, there might be a few new tidbits of information in this article that I wrote:


"The Dodge Viper has been competitive on the world stage by doing it the American way: with big wheels, big brakes, big tires, a big engine, and not a lot of refinement. While it has always been a highly capable car on the track, used car prices have finally dropped to the point of being affordable by the masses and it has become a realistic option as a track day car. This project hopes to clarify some of the stereotypes that surround the Viper and bring the truth to light of a very cool platform."

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/3740/Project-Viper-GTS-Part-1--Intro-and-History.aspx






Enjoy!
 

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I believe you have the Viper engine weight incorrect. I believe the weights quoted included the transmission. I have seen those weights quoted other places in the past, and they always rubbed me wrong. It seems highly unlikely that an all-aluminum V10 would be north of 700 pounds when the LS motors are low 400s. I believe the Gen V motor is a few pounds under 500. I've heard around 550-575 for the Gen II motors, but never officially.

I have also not noticed low RPM driveability issues. I suspect a tuneup will help in this regard (as you noted).
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hey Guys, here's:


Project Viper GTS: Part 2 - General Maintenance


"Before thoroughly enjoying the purchase of a used performance car, it’s important for the enthusiast to go through some routine maintenance items. We prepare our 1997 Viper to be driven by changing the oil, coolant, spark plugs, wires, and go through a few miscellaneous items. We then install an aftermarket temperature gauge to monitor how hot the V10 operates and to test the accuracy of the factory gauge."


Project Viper GTS: Part 2 - General Maintenance > MotoIQ - Automotive Tech, Project Cars, Performance & Motorsports






Enjoy!
 

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Hey wow. It's the history of the car that this very forum is about and pretty much everyone knows. Original.
 

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I believe you have the Viper engine weight incorrect. I believe the weights quoted included the transmission. I have seen those weights quoted other places in the past, and they always rubbed me wrong. It seems highly unlikely that an all-aluminum V10 would be north of 700 pounds when the LS motors are low 400s. I believe the Gen V motor is a few pounds under 500. I've heard around 550-575 for the Gen II motors, but never officially.
I agree. The little cast iron 6.8 V10 in my F150 is 620-640 pounds.
 

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This article made me purchase the check valve for the A/C last night :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I believe you have the Viper engine weight incorrect. I believe the weights quoted included the transmission. I have seen those weights quoted other places in the past, and they always rubbed me wrong. It seems highly unlikely that an all-aluminum V10 would be north of 700 pounds when the LS motors are low 400s. I believe the Gen V motor is a few pounds under 500. I've heard around 550-575 for the Gen II motors, but never officially.

I have also not noticed low RPM driveability issues. I suspect a tuneup will help in this regard (as you noted).
Do you have a source for the weights?



After a quick search,

In this thread: http://www.viperalley.com/forum/viper-discussions-gen-iii/82904-engine-weight-viper-gen.html

I posted on this here:

GEN 3 SPECS - ViperForums.net Dodge Viper Forum

Weight would not include all accessories but would include long block and manifolds - it is hard when the source does not define what is included. Source also not verified - it was Wikipedia

Gen 1 - 711lbs (I have heard 820lb wet with accessories)
Gen 2 - 650lbs
Gen 3 - "in the 500lbs range" (much lighter castings)

Others might have more verified info

Engine weight - Dodge Ram SRT-10 Forum - Viper Truck Club of America

With all this talk lately about weight I thought Id mention what my engine weighed the other day. Basically a long block (no intake, throttle body, flywheel, starter, alternator, powersteering pump, A/C compressor, belt, coils, plug wires, exh. manifolds) it was 465 pounds.
While I do agree that 650lbs is a lot, the 8.0L V10 is 27% larger than the 6.3L LS3. The LS3 weighs 415lbs (not sure if this includes accessories like water pump, alternator, etc...) but if you consider the 27% larger size, that would put the V10 at 527lbs, assuming no additional weight beyond this ratio is needed for the longer V10 block.

Now, the LS3 has a lightweight plastic intake manifold compared to the MASSIVE and heavy Gen 2 aluminum manifold which has an extra throttle body.

-We don't know what the 415lb LS3 weight includes (accessories, headers, 'wet', etc...)
-We don't know the weight of the 8.0L V10.
-We don't know the weight of the Aluminum Gen 2 manifold & throttle bodies.

Unless the block is stripped to just the bare long block and empty of fluids, I don't see the V10 weighing less than 500lbs. If you add all the accessories, the heavy intake manifold, heavy cast iron exhaust manifolds, dual throttle bodies, full of 8.5 quarts of oil (16lbs at 1.875lbs/qt), I think the 650lb weight for a 'wet' complete long block is believable. Anyone know a shop with first hand experience removing and weighing an engine?

Awesome stuff! Surprised you guys didn't take the Diff and Tranny oil though, as well as the 180* thermostat mod.
Thanks :) The diff and trans fluids will be covered in a future article, they aren't as crucial as the items covered in Part 2, especially with less than 8K miles on the clock.

The 180* thermostat will not improve the cooling of the car. While it will allow the engine to run cooler when there is sufficient airflow, under strenuous use or in stop and go traffic, it will have no effect on the equilibrium of the cooling system. We will tackle more cooling items in future articles and we may swap out to a 180-185* thermostat anyway but it really isn't much of a 'fix'.
 

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The power steering reservoir is known to push fluid out through the hole in the top of the cap during hard use. This has been the known cause of many fires that have burned Vipers to the ground. A $26 solution from Roe Racing routes any fluid straight down and out of the path of the headers to prevent the fluid from catching fire. This is highly recommended for any 1992-2002 Viper.
Patently false. It's never been reported to push fluid up through the hole in the top. The cap is known to come off completely during hard use. This happens because of heat, pressure, and vibration.

Also, where did you get your information regarding Chrysler's change to Mobil 1’s 0W40 European Car Formula? Cite a source please? Is it because that is what Roe recommends? You reference them enough times that rather than research and cite what Chrysler recommends, it's almost what your favorite tuner of choice recommends.

You should go download the guide that Revheat created years ago that is pretty much the de facto standard of a '96/97 Information Guide for a Viper GTS. Maybe you already have it. Maybe you don't. It's almost as if you've taken information from his guide, but because of all of your inaccuracies, I highly doubt it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Patently false. It's never been reported to push fluid up through the hole in the top. The cap is known to come off completely during hard use. This happens because of heat, pressure, and vibration.

Also, where did you get your information regarding Chrysler's change to Mobil 1’s 0W40 European Car Formula? Cite a source please? Is it because that is what Roe recommends? You reference them enough times that rather than research and cite what Chrysler recommends, it's almost what your favorite tuner of choice recommends.

You should go download the guide that Revheat created years ago that is pretty much the de facto standard of a '96/97 Information Guide for a Viper GTS. Maybe you already have it. Maybe you don't. It's almost as if you've taken information from his guide, but because of all of your inaccuracies, I highly doubt it.
While I appreciate you reading the article, I'm not sure where all this friction is coming from in either of your comments.

There's a hole in the top of the cap and as the PS fluid boils, it comes out the top of the cap, hence the creation of the PS cap vent tube. Some people take it a step further and run a hose from the vent tube to a catch can. This 'fix' would be useless if the root cause was from the entire cap coming off.

I referenced ROE because that's the products that were used. Just like I referenced AB "Quality" Wires and McMaster Carr. I also gave part numbers and links for the reader to find the products easier, rather than leaving it up to them to hunt down everything (especially that one-way valve and Hi-Temp silicone tubing -which I had to buy various sizes since no one else did in any DIYs prior).



From this thread, all the major shops and "experts" agree with my article:

10w30 or 0w40 synthetic oil for Gen 2?

An SAE 0W-40 would be better.

The "0W" label only means something at very low temperatures; in this case that the oil allows good engine cranking speeds down to -35C and good oil flow through the oil pickup tube at -40C. It means nothing as far as warmed up temperature operation.

The "40" means it is thicker than a "30" when at the warmed up oil sump temperature. However, there is "fluid friction" and so an SAE 40 will have slightly more drag in the bearings than an SAE 30. What the OEMs have done with better precision manufacturing equipment is to make surfaces more uniform, which lets them make clearances overall tighter, and then allows the use of oils with less fluid friction, like the oil designated for the 5.7L HEMI engine - an SAE 0W-20.

Pressure is not relevant other than indicating the energy needed to place the oil where it is needed. The general "10 psi for every 1000 RPM" comes from having to push the oil against the centrifugal force inside the crank so that it reaches the next crank throw. Once the oil is positioned ahead of a spinning journal, it will get pulled in anyway. The 60 psi out of the pump is not going to make much difference to the 10,000 psi pressure under the journal.

An SAE 0W-40 will therefore allow better starting, better fuel economy when warming up, and slightly poorer fuel economy when fully warmed, but with a thicker oil film - meaning directionally better engine protection.

OEMs did have the choice of an SAE 5W-40 in the past, a viscosity grade favored by the Europeans. Now that SAE 0W-40 is available, it will also be formulated for Euro applications, meaning it will have more additive than typical SAE 10W-30 oils. That alone is worth the switch.
We always recomend the 0W-40 for all the previous cars, its a more stabil oil all around.

If only it wasnt so hard to find in decent quantity!
Yes , Tom is da man on fuel, oils ,etc. and to answer your question we normally go with the 0-40W on all Vipers now.
0W40 vs 0W30 vs 10W30 thread:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/617773-Mobil-1-0w40-vs.-Mobil-1-0w30-vs.-Mobil-1-10w30

As the general consumer, we have gotten too focused on the viscosity grade and should look for how much additive is in the bottle. You've all gotten tired of me noting that diesel engine oil has 2X the additive that gasoline passenger car oil has, and this is regardless of whether it is synthetic or mineral oil.

The 10W30 is a common "US" viscosity and will probably only have API credentials. The 0W40 is a popular Euro viscosity, and so will have API as well as ACEA gasoline and ACEA diesel performance. It will have more additives to last longer, protect better, and under more circumstances than an API-only graded oil.

High mileage oils typically only have more seal-swell additives to prevent leaks from dried gaskets. Maybe, maybe they have more detergents to clean up dirty engines - something that regular oil changes wouldn't have anyway.

The gas mileage difference is on the order of 0.5% to 1.5%. That's huge if you measure over the entire country's population of vehicles, but not measurable by you.

In my opinion, the "best" oil of the group is the one that includes ACEA or some mention of European oil performance.

The 0W-xx oils are more prone to heat-related issues since the base oil viscosity is very low. (Chad, I know you remember that multigrade oils are made by starting with a base oil of roughly the low "W" rating and then adding viscosity index improvers to make it behave like a thicker oil when it gets hot. A multigrade is not a thick oil that is made to behave like a thin oil when it gets cold.) To ensure these low base oil viscosity formulations don't evaporate or boil off or cause added deposit problems, they are subject to more testing. Therefore the explanation on the back of the bottle will say that exceed 5W30 or 10W30 requirements because the 5W30 or 10W30 oils didn't have as many requirements.
A worth while quote:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/638817-Oil-Change-Update-for-Gen-IV?p=2872998#post2872998

Howdy.

Multigrade motor oils are made by starting with the thin base oil to meet the 0W-xx or 5W-xx requirements, and then a thickening additive (viscosity index improver) is added to make the oil behave like a thick oil when it gets hotter. Synthetic oils need far less of this additive than mineral oils because they have an inherently higher viscosity index (change viscosity less with change in temperature) than mineral oils. In practical terms, unless you start your car at -30C (5W-xx limits) or -35C (0W-xx limits) for the typical Viper owner it won't matter.

Both these oils are xxW-40, so they will both be essentially the same "thickness" when hot. The spec sheets are both showing ~ 3.7 HTHS.

It is the additive package that determines the actual performance level. In Europe, half the passenger cars are diesels, so the additives have to deal with both gasoline engines and diesel engines. That means it is quite a robust package for wear protection, soot and cleanliness, blowby and acids getting into the oil, turbo engines (!), and longer oil drains.

The Pennzoil products page spec sheet:
http://www.pennzoil.com/documents/PENNZOILULTRAEuropean5W40.pdf

The Mobil page:
Mobil 1 0W-40

They are both API SM/CF, ACEA A3/B3/B4, MB 229.3 and 229.5, BMW Long Life... I daresay unless you change your oil at 15,000 mile intervals like they do in Europe, there will not be any difference whatsoever.

Pennzoil is part of Shell Oil Product US (SOPUS) and they have a different marketing sense. Remember "nitrogen enriched gasoline"? Well, all gasoline in the US is required to contain cleaning additives and all these additives contain nitrogen - derivatives of ammonia, a good cleaning agent. So Shell has a good, clever, technical jargon oriented marketing team.

Mobil synthetic oil products are marketed via name and brand association. Mobil is into racing sponsorships, factory fill for many sports cars, etc. They pay to have their name on the oil fill caps, Dodge or Corvette or another car company does not do that for free.

And now a word from... me! If they both have synthetic base oils, they both are convenient wide-spread multigrades, and they both have lots of additives, what is the "best" oil? In my opinion, the base oil matters less than other things and the additives matter more than most believe. Consequently I have always recommended diesel engine oils because they have had 2X the amount of additives.

Only because it was easier (not a recommendation) I show the Mobil 1 5W40 diesel oil spec sheet:
Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40

Wow. API SM/SL/CJ-4/CI-4 PLUS/CG-4, ACEA, Cat, Cummins, MB, etc, etc. And because the marketing expenses of diesel oils are lower, the per-gallon cost vs. the above oils is less. I personally use a mineral oil diesel oil, but if you want to stay with synthetics, then the diesel 5W-40 (Mobil Delvac 1, Shell Rotella synthetic, Chevron Delo synthetic) is about the most robust, all around toughest oil you can find.
And another thread:

http://www.viperalley.com/forum/viper-discussions-gen-i/171529-viper-fluids.html

I use 0w40 mobil 1 in my '01. According to some resources on the matter the reason the cars didn't come with that grade is that it wasn't a mainstream product back in that day.

One thing about the higher viscosity oil like the 15w50, and the fact that with it you get "great oil pressure," is that pressure is resistance to flow. And the reason you have more resistance to flow is that the stuff is thicker and harder to pump. Do you really think that is a great idea?
And another:

OIL
No need to beat this to death...Mobil 1's 10W-30 ceased to be the factory fill after 2004...and is a LESSER oil than Mobil 1's 0W-40 or their 15W-50...just look at the levels on Zinc and Phosphorus and the viscosity numbers.

YES, while the Gen I, II, III recommemded SRT oil filter WAS part number 5037836AA...it has been UPGRADED to 5037836AB

Stop by and I'll give you an arm-load of "AA's" as I am only using the "AB's" on our Gen I-III Vipers!! :)
Penzoil Ulrta Euro 5W-40 looks like a great oil...and can be found at some Dodge dealers.

Mobil 1's 0W-40 was the Viper factory fill for Vipers in 2005 & 2006 and for 2008-2010.
Oil Weight?

Hi, Ron. Indeed,this has always been, and will always be, a topic for debate...a few facts, some good science, a lot of pseudo-science, habit, folklore, tradition, politics, "oil religion", and economics in my opinion.

Keep in mind that YOUR engine was developed using Mobil 1 0W-40. So, why change? One reason may be track use and/or other duty driving...also hot climate. In those cases, Mobil 1 15W-50 has been a WELL PROVEN alternative. Special needs often dictate special oils...depending of how close you wish to fly at the edge. Some "race" oils are low on additives for long term protection...requiring oil changes with each track outing. On the other hand, a "truck oil"such as Mobil's Delvac 1 5w-40 has a good history in our Vipers under a variety of circumstances. There are some great euro oils out there if money is no object. Oh, by the way, don't forget the "lucky charm effect" with special botique oils. I seriously doubt that there are very many Viper owners that have the amount of used oil analyses on Vipers that I have...dozens and dozens...from low to high mileage, street or track, and of course a few samples from folks who change the oil religiously every 4 years regardless of driving utilization.
I have been switching our Gen I, II, early Gen III Vipers away from the Mobil 1 10W-30 oils to Mobil 1. 0W-40 as recommend a couple of years ago by a prominent Viper engineer...especially since the synthetic 10W-30 ALWAYS tested a little low on viscosity...even with virgin oil samples sent from new quarts(also noted by Porsche) over 10 years ago.

All of that aside, make your own choices based on need, availability, price, and frequency of service interval that you plan.
Manufacturers of cars and oils have had to favor lower emissions and higher fuel mileage due to regulation. Sadly, this switch does not necessarily favor engine longevity and durability in my opinion. You would be appalled at the state of the oil sampled from late model Mercedes and BMW's when sampled at the dashboard-indicated service intervals. My lawnmower oil has better looking oil than seen in some of the examples...and, NO...I don't take great care of said mower.

P.S. You should pay close attention to brake and clutch fluids...as well as coolant to keep your Viper free of trouble !!
2003's and I THINK 2004's came from factory with Mobil 1 10W-30.
YES, one can use either 0W-40 or 15W-50 in all Gen Iii and IV Vipers...better protection in my opinion.


2005's & 2006's plus 2008-2010 came with 0W-40.

All manufacturers change their 'approved' oils based on their partnerships with oil manufacturers. Chrysler moved to Mobil in the 90's and now recently to Shell/Pennzoil.

Mobil 1 0W40 was the factory fill in Gen 3+ cars (and carried the MS-10850 approval) and then the specification changed to MS-10725:
(of Note: is it a coincidence that Mercedes has a close relationship with Mobil 1, during this Daimler-Chrysler era?)
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.ashx


Then:

"Pennzoil Ultra Full Synthetic 0W-40 motor oil was also designed to be backwards compatible and can be used to replace the previously recommended motor oil product."
(After the 2009 bankruptcy, FIAT stepped in as one of the principle owners. Fiat and Shell have a close relationship. Remember all the Ferrari F1 cars with Shell oil logos?).
http://www.drivesrt.com/news/2013/1...srt-brand-on-specialized-motor-oil-blend.html
"...where Chrysler MS-12633 oil is required. It may also be used in SRT engines originally recommending Chrysler MS-10725 oil."
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDO..._Platinum_0W-40_(SN_Chrysler)_(en-US)_TDS.pdf


PENNZOIL ULTRA EURO 5W-40
(2014 Fiat-Chrysler was born).
"Chrysler MS-12991 (replaces references to MS-10896), MS-10850 and MS-10725 approval"
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007500286_20130123090_5.pdf


There is a lot of politics that go on behind what oils are 'approved' and 'recommended' for a given car. BMW recently switched from Castrol to Shell as well, replacing the infamous and controversial "10W60 TWS" Motorsport oil with their own 10W60.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Hey Guys, here's:


Project Viper GTS: Part 3 - Baseline Track Testing (Data & Video)


"The Viper has a reputation for being difficult to drive and even (incorrectly) known as a bad handling car. Since the 2nd Generation Viper has not been reviewed by a magazine in close to 15 years, we took Project Viper to the track to dispel some myths and assess the car’s balance and handling ability."


Project Viper GTS: Part 3 - Baseline Track Testing (Data & Video)






Enjoy!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Hey Guys, here's:


Project Viper GTS: Part 4 – Baseline Dyno and K&N Intake Test


"The Viper is truly a car built around its engine. In Part 4, we take Project Viper GTS to the dyno for a baseline power audit and see if our mighty 8.0L V10 is cranking out the factory claimed 450hp and 490lb-ft of torque. From there we add K&N replacement air filters and change out the disruptive corrugated plastic intake tubing for a set of ROE Racing polished aluminum smooth intake tubes to see if we can squeeze out a few more ponies."


Project Viper GTS: Part 4 ? Baseline Dyno and K&N Intake Test






Enjoy!
 
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