[Torquemonster]

Last time I commented on this I got called a "Torquegeek" /images/graemlins/laughing.gif

Torque is the twisting force

HP is work done in a given amount of time

Translated - a lot of torque is needed to move heavy things, but high HP will enable you to sprint with it :thumb: You can use gears to multiply torque, but you need the ENGINE to make HP.

High Hp cars typically rpm higher and therefore use steeper gears. I was watching two street rotary Mazdas pull mid 8 second runs on the weekend - and those things have USELESS torque figures relative to hp - but they rpm high and make a lot of power. 8 seconds is fast by anyones standards for a street car.

On the Viper you have both sets of engines using the same gears. Therefore - as the gears are the same for both - the high torque at lower rpms will make more power than the high hp cars during most of the rpm range used. It's still the HP that counts - but it's at lower rpms.

Therefore - the problem is simply that some high hp cars are just not able to use the extra power they have on the top end - plus they do not spend enough time in the rpm zone where they make that extra power while the high torque of the lower powered cars is being used more effectively.

People that swear by torque to go quick are still actually relying on HP but at low rpms - and therefore go very fast on stock gear ratios. Their peak hp numbers may not look impressive - but in the rpm zones they use at the track - they make plenty of power!!!

The higher top end powered cars would go quicker than the high torque but lowered powered cars if they had steeper gears and closer ratios - assuming chassis and tires were matched. But stock gear for stock gear - the high torque wins - because it makes more hp where it matters.

SUMMARY: Torque moves an object but HP determines how quickly! Both are inter connected over a constant of 5252.... which is the rpm where torque and hp equal.

Signed TQ GEEK

 

[Torquemonster]

HP is for bragging, TQ is for racing. What is under the tq curve is all that matters.


Flame suit on

Ahhh - but it is torque at the WHEELS not the engine that matters most... :nod:

That's why a high rpm, high hp, low torque engine will invariably beat a low rpm high torque engine.... GEARING!

An 800hp 20,000rpm F1 engine will make around 210ft/lb of torque at peak hp.... that's pathetic!!! Say an 800hp blown V10 makes it by 5252rpm so torque is the same.

But to get the wheels turning the same speed as a high torque engine that peaks at 5252rpm - where the Viper engine uses a 3.07:1 rear end - the F1 engine needs an 11.69:1 gear to match that speed - and 11.69 x 210ft/lb = 2456ft/lb to road verses 800tq x 3.07 = 2456rwtq.....

wait a minute....

OH Goodness me - look at that! They're the same!!! /images/graemlins/supergrin.gif

So these two cars put down the same rwtq - even tho the F1 engine only makes a patheic 210 lb/ft at engine vs the collasal 800 of the V10. THEREFORE It really is engine AVERAGE HP that matters most - gearing will translate that into the rwtq that will motivate the car :thumb: :cheers:

 

[Torquemonster]

/images/graemlins/laughing.gif I'm not touching this one! /images/graemlins/freak

because I haven't got a bloody clue :doh:

:lolcry:

But I have heard of this before - bugger it - here's an opinion then

I think the problem is that chassis dyno's are not as accurate as engine dynos - and therefore they are great for tuning but not the most reliable source for real life power. If they were dead accurate - as Eric says - there'd be no change by swapping gears or wheels. I have no idea which wheel size gave most power... which one?

And why do you think that is?

 

[Torquemonster]

Ok - here's a wild stab in the dark

maybe the bigger sidewalls twist more and this twisting when it reaches its limits provides a counter force that actually helps the power - kinda like a pendulum effect... kind of...

maybe not

:help:

:screwy:

:leaving:

 

[Torquemonster]

I'm not sayin' you're wrong Jerome, I just don't think you're right.

I really wish I could prove this, but it is beyond my limited use of the English language. /images/graemlins/laughing.gif

Try this, think about the amount of tire sidewall flex. When you wind up that engine on the chassis dyno think about all the flex. The "wind-up" if you will.

And why do we use drag slicks with wrinkle walls ?

That is just one of the factors that make this scenario possible.

Edit:

I see TM is on to it. I knew with time he would come up with some ideas. :thumb: I need to learn to type faster. /images/graemlins/laughing.gif

Actually your word picture was a lot better than mine - what you say makes sense. What we need now is wind up tires - /images/graemlins/supergrin.gif

 

[Torquemonster]

Different power adders have different pros/cons as they run down the track:

Let's talk about air boxes then. I've dyno'd my GTS on 4 different machines since '99 and from 11k to 25k miles. With the exception of a mustang shop in SA that wasn't properly altitude corrected, every one indicated between 410 and 413hp with a fully warmed engine. New u-joints and diff made no measureable difference on my car from my March and December '03 pulls. Stock airbox with smoothies and K&Ns dyno'd the same on a hot, humid day in Houston as the HMS CF box did on a cold, dry day in SA. However, at TWS, my front straight speeds are about 4-6mph higher with the HMS box, and my trap speeds at the strip are up from ~116mph to consistently around 121+ mph. I don't give a rat's ass how much fan you blow at the front end, you will not duplicate the pressure differences at the airbox in real life. Saturday, my cool engine made 8hp more than my warm engine. It was the only time I've seen this "magic" 420hp number for my filters and tubes car.

Dean - you need to quote this post over at the org site on the Vipair thread - there's some people there will have a wet dream over that. :nod: They think a big fan is all they need - when it is obvious only on road testing counts in the real world. YOu could revive that 10,000+ post monster and give it new life! :atu:

 

[Torquemonster]

As a result of this one thread, I am certain the the Alley is no longer "dumbing down". I haven't felt this ignorant since I learned that chocolate milk doesn't come from a black cow! /images/graemlins/freak

:lolcry:

wait a minute.... :screwy:

you mean they don't?

man I need coffee

NOW

 

[Torquemonster]

Ok - here's a wild stab in the dark

maybe the bigger sidewalls twist more and this twisting when it reaches its limits provides a counter force that actually helps the power - kinda like a pendulum effect... kind of...

maybe not

:help:

:screwy:

:leaving:

Sidewall flex = stored energy :nod: Think wrinkle walls

Keep goin' Barry, you are on a roll. :thumb:

I feel like the constipated mathematician who worked it out with a pencil...

I've got a firm grip of the turles head - but the bugger won't come out...

I think the roll has come to a stop - I can't go beyond the stored energy released bit - but on that basis - a drag slick must really store some energy!

Coffee now - head hurts /images/graemlins/freak /images/graemlins/surrender

 

[Torquemonster]

Ok I'm back - with coffee and a ginger crunch.

I'm feeling dangerous now - but think i might be losing that thought...

cover me guys - I'm going in after it...

[image]http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v14/Torquemonster/Funnies/headupass.jpg[/image]

 

[Torquemonster]

I got it!!!

Jerome - pick me pick me

please pick me

ok - I think that if we look at the drag slick pic then we see the story.

It takes a lot of power to twist those babies - that will suck up a lot of energy and power...

BUT

once the limits of that tire are reached - that energy has not been wasted or lost - a lot of it is stored and then released.

If that happens on a dyno - that will definitely add measurable hp at the wheels during that process - I'd think that a Top Fuel slick twisted up to the max would unleash enough torque to move a small car.

Am I right?

Or do i get the bozo prize?

 

[Torquemonster]

Mark - I beg to differ - now the picture is becoming clearer - I can understand why I've heard of people getting more hp on tires that twist more...

there's no mystery about it - try twisting a tire with your hands then let it go. If you've ever had a toy powered by a rubber band - it's the same principle - wind it up and let it go. There's losses - but the stored energy left is real and does work when released.

I have no problem with this idea now - thanks Jerome! /images/graemlins/laughing.gif

That shows that a good chassis dyno could be accurate afterall.

 

[Torquemonster]

Fair enough Mark - but by your figures - how many hp would it take to shoot a 2200lb dragster 6" from a stop in 0.5 seconds running the gearing they run?

I submit it is measureable - and that maintaining that deflection on the tire on a rolling dyno will pick it up...

Wouldn't prima face' evidence be that others have done just that?

 

[Torquemonster]

Back from lunch - Japanese Sashimi - yummy

I know nobody cares - but what the hell.... BURPP that Jap beer wasn't bad either :cheers:

so what's the story?

Eric's cleared up the mystery of why a dyno doesn't need gear ratios factored in - hey thanks for that - I didn't know that and always wondered.. that was cool and makes perfect sense

what about why 16" tall tires make more power than 19" low profile ones with same overall diameter?

Many theories - some conflicting - all make good points.... the fact remains - higher readings are being recorded for the 16" tires... if the arguments against this happening are true - then what is causing this?