[King GTS]

Smokin (or anyone) what are your thoughts on why Heffner was the 1st SC Viper Tuner to get in the 9's? Usually you hear about DLM & all the power his cars make. But he doesn't have one car in the 9's yet. Heffner is the 1st. It would be naive to assume that DLM and the other SC Tuners out there have not been trying to accomplish this feat over the years. What do you think they are doing wrong? It's obvious that Heffner has something figured out that they have not. If the other SC Tuners don't have a Viper in the 9's by now, I don't see them doing it any time soon. Unless of course they figure something out that they're doing wrong. Or do you think it's even a matter of that? Is it all about the driver? That can't be right because I'm sure DLM could have anyone they wanted drive for them. I'm in a bit of a quandary about this whole thing.

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Anyway....congrats to Heffner! I saw the video and it was awesome! This thread is in no way a "knock" on any of the other SC Tuners out there.

 

[Smokin]

DISCLAIMER: The following post is JUST MY OPINION!

Well when I was choosing Supercharger Viper tuners, after I decided a bolt-on kit wasnt enough, I "took off the gloves" and decided I was after the absolute largest HP possible. The two obvious choices were DLM and Jason Heffner. Now this is going to be a controversal post, but this is why "I" chose Heffner. I chose Jason Heffner's systems based several criteria. First of all both tuners laid down similar HP numbers. I prefered (tremendously) the methodology Jason Heffner uses for fuel delivery. Jason sticks with traditional (manufacturer style) port fuel injection. I noticed that the DLM systems obtain a substantial portion of their "on boost" fuel through additional injectors. And although both systems work, I always thought that there was a reason that all the auto manufacturers "canned" using TB fuel injection years and years ago. I couldnt convince myself that additional injectors could get even fuel distribution across an intake manifold several feet long. Uneven fuel distribution could possibly mean unequal cylinder pressures. Maybe this is NOT the case, but I did prefer that not being a possibility. Measured at the tailpipe both tuners show good smooth fuel curves, but I wondered what was ultimately happening inside EACH cylinder. Are some running richher while some running leaner? Even with similar dyno horsepower numbers and good AF ratios on the dyno, whats going on differently between the two types of fuel enrichment in real world conditions? Moreover, heffner replaced the stock fyel system with a complete return system wtih new pump, filter, lines, fuel rails, 10 new port-mounted injectors, and a new engine management system that works. I also believe both tuners are constantly tyring to improve their blower systems. Heffner however has made some significant recent improvements (that I may even send my car back for) that pick up some SERIOUS HP. You have to keep in mind that this is 100% on pump gas. No 100 octane was used. I preferered not having to have a fuel cell in the trunk to run race gas. Nothing is wrong with that, but that was my preference. Heffner put down almost 870 RWHP Russ Beckett's car on pump gas on a stock bottom end engine. Obviously something is right and his tuning is working. The DLM guys sport similar dyno curves but to my knowledge are 1/4 second behind. Maybe it was the weather, maybe its some minor tuning, cam profile, cylinder porting methodology, intake system, intercooler sizing, intercooler cores, blower efficiency, minor differences in lag, torque curves, etc. Both types of systems obviously work, however to date Jason has laid down a number that is well into the 9's. That definitely has raised the bar. I know russ's car has some "special" changes to it that mine, erics, and some other heffner's cars dont have, and I plan on doing these upgrades in the very near future. I must say that I am VERY pleased with my system, and have no regrets about my decision or purchase.

 

[King GTS]

Solid answer Jason. Solid answer.

 

[tito]

long story short, u basically went with your "gut" feeling. Glad it worked for you.

 

[Smokin]

long story short, u basically went with your "gut" feeling. Glad it worked for you.

Put it this way, Im a mechanical engineer by training. I have a pretty decent background in IC engine design. Raced all types of cars, pro-stock/pro-street dragsters before I had a Viper. Although it wasnt completely scientific and based on empirical data, it might have been more than gut.

 

[J DAWG]

My opinion is it is the driver. As far as Heffner and DLM, they are both making the power and I have several Dyno sheets posted on VCA that show almost identical curves, but regardless of that I still feel the driver and the track are the 2 biggest factors.

Dr. Roof ran a 10.22 in May and I can't recall what his short time was, but watching the run the car "bogged" (no pun intended) off the line. That car IMO is capable of a 9 second pass and I think David will be the first to admit he needs more seat time.

And watching Paolo's car Sunday, their is no doubt that machine will run solid 9's. Once Paolo gets more than 4 runs over a 7 hour time frame he will definetly lay some 9's down.

I guess after seeing both systems run, i still feel the biggest varible is the driver and then the track. The cars have the potential it is just a matter of getting the "perfect" launch.


John

 

[mattl]

dlm ran 10.1 at moroso which is a garbage track in the heat of south florida

 

[E-Slab]

man this topic is going to cause a ton of shit, but you asked an honest question, here is my honest answer. honestly, i have only had my viper the better half of a year. i bought my car, thought the 400 hp was PLENTY. well, after some time behind the wheel and being able to drive the shit out of it under control, it lost its edge. well right around this time, the morgue went to shit, and i found .com. well i remember in the beginning, Smoke was still deciding what tuner to go to, and then very shortly after, he sent his car to heffners. to be honest with you, Smoke had a lot to do with my decision. then the alley came along, and after seeing COMPLETE pics of Smokes car after 5 weeks, i knew that heffner was quick, and his system looked the best by far. i like the simplistic look of his system, and Smoke's chrome just said, 'BADASS MOTHER FUCKER." i honestly think the DLM kits have too much going on. that isnt a knock on DLM by any means, just saying that i PREFER to have a stocker looking system. after smoke posted his dyno number i knew right then it was off to heffner's. the thing is, smoke achieved that number for thousands less than DLM. i dont know about many, but money is a factor in my decision. well that week i called heffner, and after 10 minutes on the phone with him, i was SOLD. one thing that sold me about Heffner was, he was was willing to TURN AWAY business to make sure that the car had forged pistons. i know i know, it's all in the tuning, but i knew i wanted forged pistons so i asked Jason his input.... SOLD. as far as the specifics of the entire system, i wanted somethign that would run as close to stock temperatures as possible, i wanted somethign i could drive on the street, and something that nobody could keep up with. heffner promised me it would make 750 RWHP, and run as cold as stock.... well who would know that it would make over 800, and run colder than stock?? as far as the really technical aspects, i am STILL learning. Smoke has helped me every step of the way, and heffner is ALWAYS just a phone call away. Heffner into the 9's just adds another bullet to the list of many for why i am happy i went to Heffner

 

[tito]

DLM and Heffner seem to be so close in competition, with their SC packages, that neither would be a "wrong" choice. It would be a hard choice for me to make if i were to be in your shoes. What i meant by "gut feeling" is that it must have been personal preferances, not that you went and took your car to someone without knowing your head from your ass.

Dont be so insecure, like i said, im glad it worked for you. Really.

 

[King GTS]

My opinion is it is the driver. As far as Heffner and DLM, they are both making the power and I have several Dyno sheets posted on VCA that show almost identical curves, but regardless of that I still feel the driver and the track are the 2 biggest factors.

Dr. Roof ran a 10.22 in May and I can't recall what his short time was, but watching the run the car "bogged" (no pun intended) off the line. That car IMO is capable of a 9 second pass and I think David will be the first to admit he needs more seat time.

And watching Paolo's car Sunday, their is no doubt that machine will run solid 9's. Once Paolo gets more than 4 runs over a 7 hour time frame he will definetly lay some 9's down.

I guess after seeing both systems run, i still feel the biggest varible is the driver and then the track. The cars have the potential it is just a matter of getting the "perfect" launch.


John

Yeah but John why wouldn't the tuners go get a bad azz driver to bust out a number for them? Like the Texas Tuners all do? I mean I would think that this would be one of the 1st things they'd do. Can you imagine the effect that would've had on their sales over the years? I mean have their been any notable drivers that have taken a SC Viper to the track? Mike Brunton, 1BadGTS (Evan Smith), SW, I mean there are a lot of bad azz drivers out there. I now find myself thinking, "Have any bad azz drivers even tried to bust out a 9 w/ a SC Viper?"

 

[SnakeBit10]

870rwhp on stock bottom end???Jeeeeezuss......I do believe this surpasses the Supra's incredibly stout stock bottom end....That speaks volumes about the tuning as much as it does about the strength of the Vipers bottom end... :thumb: to Heffner.....

As regards the post King made...The DLM/Heffner cars trap about the same mph...Only difference is the et...Maybe driver??Or suspension setup???Damn sure aint power....

 

[King GTS]

870rwhp on stock bottom end???Jeeeeezuss......I do believe this surpasses the Supra's incredibly stout stock bottom end....That speaks volumes about the tuning as much as it does about the strength of the Vipers bottom end... :thumb: to Heffner.....

As regards the post King made...The DLM/Heffner cars trap about the same mph...Only difference is the et...Maybe driver??Or suspension setup???Damn sure aint power....

After reading Smokins technical post about the different possibilities, I have a much better understanding of what could be going on.

 

[SnakeBit10]

870rwhp on stock bottom end???Jeeeeezuss......I do believe this surpasses the Supra's incredibly stout stock bottom end....That speaks volumes about the tuning as much as it does about the strength of the Vipers bottom end... :thumb: to Heffner.....

As regards the post King made...The DLM/Heffner cars trap about the same mph...Only difference is the et...Maybe driver??Or suspension setup???Damn sure aint power....

After reading Smokins technical post about the different possibilities, I have a much better understanding of what could be going on.

"Only difference" meant performance-wise not in execution wiseguy /images/graemlins/bootyshake.gif Obviously the two setups are technically different in execution but they yield similar power and performance...Hence I said maybe driver, suspension etc K

 

[Mister Bone]

Why so long before someone busted a 9? Many reasons, and HP and TQ was not one of them. Traction and driver skill is/was.

It takes talent to work the go pedal, though some will just say that drag racing is easy. I would like to strap some of them into the cars I have had to see how "easy" they think it is.

IRS's suck for drag racing. The gear ratios in the trans could be better matched. But these are thing most do not want to change.

I have asked before what alignment settings these guys use in the IRS but no one has ever answered me. So either no one is modifying the specs for the quarter or it is a secret.

I too have a feeling that many more S/C cars will be in the 9's soon. And I bet one of them is a Roe car.

 

[tito]

good call jerome. :cheers:

 

[Smokin]

Why so long before someone busted a 9? Many reasons, and HP and TQ was not one of them. Traction and driver skill is/was.

It takes talent to work the go pedal, though some will just say that drag racing is easy. I would like to strap some of them into the cars I have had to see how "easy" they think it is.

IRS's suck for drag racing. The gear ratios in the trans could be better matched. But these are thing most do not want to change.

I have asked before what alignment settings these guys use in the IRS but no one has ever answered me. So either no one is modifying the specs for the quarter or it is a secret.

I too have a feeling that many more S/C cars will be in the 9's soon. And I bet one of them is a Roe car.

The Roe cars could PROBABLY do it, but Im guessing it would take a shit load of HP. The roe cars make boost down low, so if they can get traction, they would have one hell of a hole shot and a great 60'. Thats half the battle. Thing is, most guys who run 9's are making about 850+ rwhp on the top end, whether its nitrous, turbo, or SC, so Im guessing there mgiht be a bit of work there. As far as other blower cars running 9's im sure its going to happen. But weve been waiting for YEARS and that last that 1/4 second doesnt come too easy.

 

[King GTS]

870rwhp on stock bottom end???Jeeeeezuss......I do believe this surpasses the Supra's incredibly stout stock bottom end....That speaks volumes about the tuning as much as it does about the strength of the Vipers bottom end... :thumb: to Heffner.....

As regards the post King made...The DLM/Heffner cars trap about the same mph...Only difference is the et...Maybe driver??Or suspension setup???Damn sure aint power....

After reading Smokins technical post about the different possibilities, I have a much better understanding of what could be going on.

"Only difference" meant performance-wise not in execution wiseguy /images/graemlins/bootyshake.gif Obviously the two setups are technically different in execution but they yield similar power and performance...Hence I said maybe driver, suspension etc K

Not sure where the "wise guy" comment came from. I wasn't trying to be a smart a** or anthing like that. Sorry if you took it wrong.

 

[SnakeBit10]

870rwhp on stock bottom end???Jeeeeezuss......I do believe this surpasses the Supra's incredibly stout stock bottom end....That speaks volumes about the tuning as much as it does about the strength of the Vipers bottom end... :thumb: to Heffner.....

As regards the post King made...The DLM/Heffner cars trap about the same mph...Only difference is the et...Maybe driver??Or suspension setup???Damn sure aint power....

After reading Smokins technical post about the different possibilities, I have a much better understanding of what could be going on.

"Only difference" meant performance-wise not in execution wiseguy /images/graemlins/bootyshake.gif Obviously the two setups are technically different in execution but they yield similar power and performance...Hence I said maybe driver, suspension etc K

Not sure where the "wise guy" comment came from. I wasn't trying to be a smart a** or anthing like that. Sorry if you took it wrong.

Thought you were being sarcastic about my overly simplistic take on the subject compared to that Smokin feller /images/graemlins/laughing.gif No biggie

 

[King GTS]

870rwhp on stock bottom end???Jeeeeezuss......I do believe this surpasses the Supra's incredibly stout stock bottom end....That speaks volumes about the tuning as much as it does about the strength of the Vipers bottom end... :thumb: to Heffner.....

As regards the post King made...The DLM/Heffner cars trap about the same mph...Only difference is the et...Maybe driver??Or suspension setup???Damn sure aint power....

After reading Smokins technical post about the different possibilities, I have a much better understanding of what could be going on.

"Only difference" meant performance-wise not in execution wiseguy /images/graemlins/bootyshake.gif Obviously the two setups are technically different in execution but they yield similar power and performance...Hence I said maybe driver, suspension etc K

Not sure where the "wise guy" comment came from. I wasn't trying to be a smart a** or anthing like that. Sorry if you took it wrong.

Thought you were being sarcastic about my overly simplistic take on the subject compared to that Smokin feller /images/graemlins/laughing.gif No biggie

Not at all. I'm the biggest idiot here when it comes to all this crap. [image]http://forums.mi5clan.com/images/smilies/2thumbs.gif[/image] /images/graemlins/laughing.gif

 

[SnakeBit10]

870rwhp on stock bottom end???Jeeeeezuss......I do believe this surpasses the Supra's incredibly stout stock bottom end....That speaks volumes about the tuning as much as it does about the strength of the Vipers bottom end... :thumb: to Heffner.....

As regards the post King made...The DLM/Heffner cars trap about the same mph...Only difference is the et...Maybe driver??Or suspension setup???Damn sure aint power....

After reading Smokins technical post about the different possibilities, I have a much better understanding of what could be going on.

"Only difference" meant performance-wise not in execution wiseguy /images/graemlins/bootyshake.gif Obviously the two setups are technically different in execution but they yield similar power and performance...Hence I said maybe driver, suspension etc K

Not sure where the "wise guy" comment came from. I wasn't trying to be a smart a** or anthing like that. Sorry if you took it wrong.

Thought you were being sarcastic about my overly simplistic take on the subject compared to that Smokin feller /images/graemlins/laughing.gif No biggie

Not at all. I'm the biggest idiot here when it comes to all this crap. [image]http://forums.mi5clan.com/images/smilies/2thumbs.gif[/image] /images/graemlins/laughing.gif

/images/graemlins/laughing.gif