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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
:thumb:

Time slip reads:
60' - 1.32
1/8 - 5.48
MPH- 132.39
1/4 - 8.474
MPH- 162.55

Driver tried turning it up some for the next pass and everything was quicker but the track went away on the top end and had to abort the run when the car got squirley. Steve has gotten used to this. Car ran best of 164.5mph

Still has stock 6.0 manifolds, stock LS6 intake, stock ported throttle body and a hydraulic cam. Race weight is near 3500 lbs. Stock suspension with wheelie bars

1996 Pontiac single turbo on 22.5lb boost... oh yeah - it's engine is very streetable, and made 1392hp at 25lb boost then on a mistaken overboost ran 1592hp at 5000rpm on 36lb boost on HEAD GASKETS..... :rofl: :nod:

This is by no means a top shelf engine - just a great combo using affordable parts. Other SBC's are making even more - remember this is 408 cubic inches with a street hydraulic roller not a race engine.

Flaming posts will be a bit trite - this is a fair benchmark and it is reasonable the much larger V10 can overcome the IRS setup handicap and match this Pontiac....

at least until it runs a 7 (which it will)...

carry on, let me know when you get close :smooch: :thumb:
 

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I feel the bigest reason the viper isn't as fast as the SBC is simply due to cost. You can buy a big single turbo kit for it for about 5 grand. What do you get for a viper for 5 grand....headers, hf cats and a cat-back and not much else.
 

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That is not the traditional small block chevy...thats a Gen 3 small block....Lightyears ahead of the SBC. Turbo LS1's or their derivatives are no joke. I believe Moundir got his ass handed to him by one. /images/graemlins/laughing.gif
 

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What kind of tranny ? What kind of suspension ? Link so I can chop it up some more ? Not a race engine ....b.s. What DO you consider a race engine ?

p.s. it aint a small block chebby anymore....more like a corporate engine.
 

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TORQUEMONSTER,FUNNY STUFF!SNAKES HEAD FOR HIDING SPOTS WHEN THEY SEE STUFF LIKE THIS.THE DENIAL FACTOR COMES IN.MY 2000 Z-28 CAMARO LPE C5-R 427 C.I. SMALL BLOCK ON SPRAY RUNS HIGH 8'S.RED FLASH.... THIS AINT TRITE BUD.ITS ALL ABOUT THE QUARTER MILE THROW DOWN! :rofl: :dance:p.S.PUT YOUR DICK BACK IN YOUR PANTS BEFORE U EMBARASS YOURSELF.THANX!
 

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This are the specs on the car. I got it form LS1Tech.com

4.005 bore X 4.00 stroke
Mahle custom piston made for us
Customer supplied LS1 callies rods
Callies crank
W2W girdle system on mains
Aluminum LS1 heads (customer supplied)w/ copper head gaskets
Comp R lifters
Cam Motion hyd roller: Intake lift .610, duration [email protected]

ex lift .605, duration [email protected]

Jesel adj rockers
ls6 intake
Ported F car throttlebody
160 lb hr injectors
Big stuff 3 controller (this is highest HP coil on plug we have ever done)
Truck coils
W2W ported oil pump
Dailly scavenge pump
ARE 2 stage drysump pan
Garrett 88-98mm turbo
Honeywell air to water intercooler
 

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Quote from the Engine Builder Kurt:
"The converter was tight on there last engine so they had it loosened up, the things too loose now(6200+-)."

trans is a turbo 400 with a ford 9 inch. rear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
:rofl:

Nothing like a good stir.

Norm is the only one onto it.

FACT: The only reason Vipers are not cutting mid 8's or better (while remaining street legal with some quick changes) is that nobody (who wants to) BOTH thinks they can AND knows what to do to run the numbers.

ouch - but face it - the 9's were like this big bogey man now Norm has done it with only what - 700 something rwhp? And the 1000rwhp cars aren't able to use their extra power where it counts. That is not because it can't be done

So people have to start thinking outside the square now - THEN we'll see some big drops in ET to 8.5's and under (no spray needed).

Now if that is not a challenge - flame away and be wrong :thumb:

Someone will step up. It might take a while - but it will happen - in a Viper, and retaining IRS. It might not be stock IRS, but it will be IRS. And the Viper will NOT need spray to run a low 8....

There are a few TT Vipers right now that will run mid 8's with a trick auto and a solid rear if they had the right setup.

Tony - the suspension is STOCK on that Firehawk, the trans was an auto with a good converter.

To run a 6 speed to this time on a true street car would require a Holinger sequential - something no one here has yet for drag racing. However plenty overseas have. A couple of Viper Road Race teams here run them, other than that - you are stuck with a Liberty or Lenco (NOT Street friendly at all though can be done). I mention this because everyone thinks an auto is the only way - NO it is simply the cheapest way. A good box like the Holinger is quicker than an auto, your T-56 would NOT be.

There's a couple of cars that can have a crack at this - you are going to need around 1300rwhp because the IRS will waste a lot. I know of 2 Vipers that will make or exceed this power level at will. Neither of which have run yet.

You'll need an expert to go through the drivetrain and to setup the suspension. You'll need to run taller tires - and you'll need a chute and wheelie bars to use this kind of power.... in other words - the car will require some minor but permanent work... Viper brakes will pull up 170mph on most tracks - but it will be illegal, and boy you won't want to be slow getting on them, ...and you'll want good pads. A chute will be looking real good right about the time you hit 170 and you see the end coming up at you.

Here is the Pontiac that will beat any V10 powered street Viper that has so far run

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232626 Kurt who built the engine is known as 427. I've seen the full build up of that engine and it IS NOT top shelf, it was built to a modest budget. Trust me - Kurt can build a LOT more power than that given the budget to run the top stuff. The car owner is TwnTrboCE on this forum, and he built it all to a budget.

and here is why you'll want wheelie bars when you match the power per weight of the factory truck block small block Chev.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232626&page=2&pp=20 look for the signature pic under Y2KHawk and click on that wheelie. Wait to see the 4th run of the day on that clip... :nod: it wheelies at the start, then again when it comes down and he replants it /images/graemlins/laughing.gif

The point is not that the Chev and Ford small blocks can beat the Viper for less money - that's childish. The point is that the Viper can cut these times. The Viper world just has a long way to go - so I'm stiring the pot so people stop dicking around with the 9's and get serious.

Call me whatever name you want - mid 9's is great for an alrounder car with IRS and that can still get respect around Walmart cones - but mid 8's and lower can be done without having a single purpose car... there will be compromises - but what do you expect? Compromise does not need to mean the car has less capabilities than stock.

There are two ways to do it and retain the nature of the Viper - an easy way and a hard way. The easy way will create a Viper that will probably not be as quick around a road circuit anymore, and would require someone with mechanical knowledge to set the car up for the track or the street.

The hard way will be more user friendly in swapping between different uses and retain road handling capabilities as good or better than stock - BUT will cost into 6 figures. If that scares you - you ain't in this ballgame - period.

The fact is the Viper will cost but it can be done. They're coming your way soon.

The cheapest option of all is to create a street/strip Viper - like Sir Hiss but with a V10... that would be the easiest and cheapest of all - but the car is never going to see a road course - it is for straight line and cruising only.

it is going to get exciting around here soon :thumb:
 

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In another thread I see this post by the engine builder on the cam specs:

We used a Cam Motion solid roller.
The intake has 262 duration with .724 lift on a 111.8 centerline.
The ex has 256 duration with .727 lift on 119.8 centerline.
The lobe seperation is 115.8.
The engine comes up on boost smooth and idle's comfortably at 1200 rpm.
Kurt
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
SGC ZR1 said:
wrong engine same builder


same with cam specs.

That engine you linked to is a race engine and runs a solid roller cam. It still runs some cheaper parts because the customer could not afford the best stuff like a racing block, Winberg crank, Jager rods etc - but hey - 1560hp out of a SBC at only 25lb boost is ok right?

The engine in the Firehawk runs a HYDRAULIC roller cam that specs at 242 intake @ 050 and 238 on exhaust @ 050. Lift is 0.610" and .605" respectively, and it runs a 115 LSA. The key is that the intake is opened much later compared to a n/a cam....

Turbo cams need to be customized to each engine - based upon pressure drop in intake and exhaust systems, and to minimize overlap while still providing breathing in the rpm band desired... they are a different animal to the factory Hyd roller cam you have in the Viper.... and you also need less exhaust duration than intake duration with a turbo

This Firehawk could commute daily on that HYD cam :nod:
 

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not to digress but i love firehawks. i had a 1995; t-tops metallic green. with a few simple upgrades it was a badass streetmachine and was the best sounding car i ever heard. now im looking to get another one soon and im going with the LPE 427 setup in it!!
 

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My Bad TQ, but on the first specs I listed it says they are using a water to air intercooler, the pics I linked can't be that far off as far as appearance other than the intake.
Also, is this car running a turbo 400 with the high stall?
I'd like to see pics of the car and engine bay.
What it comes down to, is the definition of a street car. What is a street car for a hard core racer, is very far from what I call a street car. Everybody has its own definition.
I just don't see any of these so called "street" cars cruising on weekend in the middle of traffic in South Beach with ac on, or VIP parked in front of a Club on a Saturday night like I see Vipers and other exotics do.
Fast car no doubt!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
cool! But the LPE is a bit whimpy compared to what Kurt and a couple of others do... you have pm. :thumb:

by the way - Kurt has done quite a bit of work with Mike Moran - remember that name?

Mike has a 3300hp EFI Monte Carlo that has run 240mph in the 1/4 mile and will soon run a high 5 second pass.

LPE is a high dollar and class package, but Kurt will build you a one off for no more (or less) money that will make the LPE combo look like a toy... different league altogether. Wheel to Wheel are not well known to the public (very well known inside top racing) but Kurt is an engine builder there and they do some of the fastest race engines in America for different classes - Indy, NHRA etc - this is as good as it gets.
 

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Well, obviously the Viper has the potential to run just as quick and as fast as the car you are speaking of. The only thing missing is someone actually willing to dedicate a car to doing it. As I see it, most Viper owners like to keep their cars streetable. I know that you will say that this car is streetable, and I can't say that it is not but let's face it, neither one of us has ever driven or even seen this car. I know that there are a few guys who think that they have dedicated a car to making it this fast but you haven't. There are just a few key components missing and the tuners who are building these cars either don't have the knowledge or choose not to use it. So let's see, which one of you guys wants to dedicate their Viper to this cause? Let me know how it works out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
:nod:

the beauty of a hot turbo setup is that you can keep air con and run in traffic and do everyday normal things

the chute gives it away - /images/graemlins/laughing.gif

but that's about it
 

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TQ i wouldnt call the LPE 427 kit for the firehawk wimpy; its a great NA setup. but, i do agree, id love to match (or better yet beat) its power for a better price, LPE is and always has been pricey. but, you get what you pay for. i personally have never heard of any problems with an LPE vehicle and Ive seen quite a few over the yrs and the owners' never have anything but good things to say (which is something you cant say about alot of other tuners' vehicles)
 

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FACT: The only reason Vipers are not cutting mid 8's or better (while remaining street legal with some quick changes) is that nobody (who wants to) BOTH thinks they can AND knows what to do to run the numbers
Watch yer point Torquey? You have to use the Force to run 8's with a Viper? Click your heels together 3 times? Mike Moran had an 8sec street Pinto wagon like 12yrs ago BTW. One recent Mustang bash had a turbo 4cyl Stang running 9's. There's lots of fast cars out there. You're tight with Heffner..if it was that e-z to run 8's he'd be there by now. Ronnie Sox at 62yo was running 8's with a 4spd, so a beefed auto isn't mandatory. How much better can you do with a 1.4_ 60' time from a T-56 by going to an auto? There may be some limitations to the Viper engine. RPM for one...a couple thousand extra RPM go a long way towards lower ETs. SS/Hemi's used to get 550hp @ 6500 and use a 4.56 gear, 40yrs later they're getting 900+hp @ 9100rpm and using 5.43 gears. SBC engine were revving higher than V10s even back in the 60's. It all adds up. Most of those 8sec cars would be hard pressed to make a 500 mile round trip w/o complaint.
 
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