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Eric (Redsnakegts) and I actually SAW the intake manifold from the mash's car when we were at Heffners a couple of months ago. When you pulled the access/freeze plugs from the back of the intake manifold and stick your finger in there there are CLUMPS of extrude hone residue stuck in that manifold. I cant believe that Apex is trying to pin this on Heffner. They machined a $5-6K crankshaft wrong, left extrude hone abrasive in the intake manifold and then blame it on someone else? If they arent doing vipers any more its no wonder and its no surprise. So what we know is that Apex has done two of these engine packages. One is on one of their employees car which is for sale? Wonder why. And the other one is the Mash's car. Gee what percentage failure is that?

 

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Dunno if he's actually one of "them" but he is definitely a symp.

Yes and Yes

 

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First of all, let me state up front that I am a friend of Bill's and have been for a long time. However, that doesn't change the fact that Bill is a man of integrity and IF one of his shop's installs was faulty, he would certainly step up and do the right thing, no matter what.

The situation started on a message board, without any communication to Bill, despite what anyone else says. If it had started between Bill and Mash the way it should have, I bet there wouldn't have been an issue - as Bill would have taken care of it. At this point it looks like a campaign to discredit another tuner, and since Bill is taking a stand against how shitty the whole thing was handled, it looks like its working.

Despite what anyone says, Apex is a first class operation and Bill is a first class guy. It is true that Apex is not taking any new Viper customers. Its also true that they build the most powerful NA Vipers around - with first class custom parts and process.


Oh, and Bill sells the CNCd aluminum Viper stuff for another club member who has a machine shop. You figure out how much it costs to CNC two blocks of aluminum into custom valve covers. If you don't want to pay that, don't, but don't make fun of something you don't know shit about.

Just had to get that off my chest. What no one is saying here is that the situation was handled completely wrong by the customer - so IMO - its tough shit. Its just a shame Bill's name and shop has to take the brunt of it.

Mark,
You may think that Bill is a man of integrity,but I witnessed this whole thing unravel via telephone and during 2 separate trips to Heffner's. I remember Jason Heffner describing what the mash's car had dynoed over the telephone the day it dynoed after the supercharger. RedsnakeGTS and I both arrived at Heffners and saw the Mash's car the day it completed the camshaft swap. It was VERIFIED from the mash who was there that the car had driveability issues with the other cam in place. THEN I went back when Eric was getting ready to take delivery on his car and we both saw the extrude hone grit in the Mash's intake manifold. Moreover Eric and I actually got a SAMPLE of the extrude hone material by putting our fingers into the intake manifold. THATS FIRST HAND! Guess who did the extrude hone on the intake manifold? (heres a hint, it wasnt Heffner). Are you insinuating that Jason Heffner had ANYTHING to do with this? Come on...PUHLEEZE. Show me a couple of apex cars that actually make some decent power. I'll show you several heffner cars putting WELL OVER 700RWHP for every 1 broken or working apex car. Apex went on the other thread and said that the oil pan was tapped...if you look under ANY heffner car you will see that our oil pans are REMOVED and then tapped, and threaded for AN fittings, just looking at the install would show you this cant be done in place with the pan installed on the car. Come on, the basis for your argument is "you know him" versus we actually SAW hard empiracle evidence. From the looks of things how could you say that he would be a man of integrity. From what I can see wouldnt you say that not only is he he not stepping up to the plate but seems to be insinuating another perfectly good tuner is at fault for their negligence?

 

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Letting another tuner change cams twice and do this and that and then finally break the motor down - only to then blame the original tuner?

Come on, thats really low Mark. Just because Bill is your friend doesnt mean you need to jump on the bashing bandwagon. Tell me how changing the cam has anything to do with complete engine failure. Jason installs custom camshafts on vipers all the time. Its not like Jason left the timing cover off and went out driving the pikes peak hillclimb the next day. You should know better than that. Second of all, why would Jason Heffner need to change the cam if bill had cut the right cam to BEGIN WITH so the car was remotely driveable. And what does changing a cam have to do with finding loads of extrude hone abrasive in the intake manifold? What you are doing is bashing heffner for the sake of protecting your friend. Get a clue.

 

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Obviously the intake would not have been installed with any kind of known grit or residue. If the grit showed up later, which could happen (though it shouldn't by Extrude Hone's process), then Apex would be responsible and likely they could get reimbursed by Extrude Hone - but thats a guess.

How would the grit show up later? Stop grasping at straws. What you are insinuating is UNETHICAL and downright disgusting. This grit isnt just loosely sitting in there. From what I saw ITS FUCKIN COATED PORTIONS OF THE INTAKE MANIFOLD! Jason Heffner DID NOT pay anyone to extrude hone the intake manifold! Guess who did?

You can see the miscommunication just from Bill's post - he's talking about possible sources of metal shavings. You all are talking about visible grit on the intake. It seems there have definitely been some communications issues somewhere. Why not just snap a pic and send to Bill along with the grit? He could have checked with Extrude Hone and that would have closed this issue in 2 minutes.

Jason Heffner did post that he would send pictures. Stop second guessing this. You have THREE well known respected members of the board saying they witnessed this as well. Yet you continue on your Heffner bashing mission in a seemingly useless attempt to protect your friend. I suggest you shut your pie hole before you look completely foolish.

 

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The mash is in Saudi Arabia, thats why its being handled poorly...lack of communication. Second of all, the car was experiencing 20-40% leakage on all slugs within the first 1000 or so miles, id say tahts pretty damn near close to fucked up. Also from whatI gather the car arrived with 500 miles and only made 570 rhwp with a 550 CI displacement? Kinda low wouldnt you say?...especially with a cam that you yourself are claiming to make a ton of power? So what can you infer from that? And how can you make an assesment on how long it would take the extrude hone material to fuck it up? Did you see the intake manifold? Are you an expert? So by you making this staement you seem to be implying that its not the extrude hone material...which to anyone with even 10% intelligence you are obviously pointing the finger at Jason Heffner again to protect your frined. Dont feed us "I have nothing but respect for both tuners" and expect me, or anyone else with half a cunt hair of a clue to buy your load of double talking backstabbing bullshit. BTW, only one guy is worthy of being called a tuner. Want to venture a guess on who I have in mind? So if its not the extrude hone material, then what the fuck is it? Some magical cylinder wall ring eating magical air that goes through K&N's? And what did the extrude hone residue taht I SAW do then? Whats your theory? Do you think it was just happily camping out up there in the intake manifold peacefully enjoying the views of the intake valves? They say, Denial is the first stage..... you should look into it.

 

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I just read bills post at the morgue. I for one am COMPLETELY DISGUSTED by his posts and apparent lack of integrity. The grit he describes in his post is EXACTLY what Jason Heffner showed Erik and me at his shop in the Mash's intake manifold. Moreover, NO ONE SAID THE GRIT WAS METALLIC!!!!! In my eyes, bill is showing that this is their mentality in doing business. Jason Heffner on the other hand is willing to fly half way across the coutnry to merely improve the way his customers cars run when they are operating within specified limits! Shit I wouldnt take a ford F150 to them let alone a viper. Plain DISTGUSTING! /images/graemlins/flip2.gif

 

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Trey, I think that's a little extreme - right now we're operating on a he said basis and Apex as we know has made some killer Viper motors. I find the fact that everyone over at the morgue (and here) throws their two cents in quite annoying and it seems like quite a bandwagon post (no one mentioned anything until Torquie posted). Why don't you wait and see how the situation is resolved before rating someone poorly?

Just my :twocents:

Killer Viper Motors? I believe you use a plural in that sentence. I know of ONE and that was on Wayne's car....im not sure if he was/is an employee, but he was closely tied to the shop somehow...Ive heard rumors about that engine as well. And as far as the other one goes, well thats been the subject at hand. Bandwagon post? NOPE, I saw the intake manifold. Im also seeing how they are handling this sitaution right now. Are you impressed? Would you be if this was YOUR CAR?

 

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Hey Mike, post the pics Heffner sent you here.