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You mean Shenanigans
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http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showfla...;o=&fpart=1

Little discussion on the morgue regarding Mash's 550 stroker problems. Looks like the extrude hone material wasn't sufficiently cleaned from the intake manifold and gouged up the cylinders, and rings. Not to mention the crank key was machined to far and a filler had to be added.

Anyone know if there is truth to the mention that APEX is no longer modifiying Vipers?
 

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I would NEVER do business with them after this! Seeing 1st hand how they treat their customers. This is the beginning of the end for them.
 

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Eric (Redsnakegts) and I actually SAW the intake manifold from the mash's car when we were at Heffners a couple of months ago. When you pulled the access/freeze plugs from the back of the intake manifold and stick your finger in there there are CLUMPS of extrude hone residue stuck in that manifold. I cant believe that Apex is trying to pin this on Heffner. They machined a $5-6K crankshaft wrong, left extrude hone abrasive in the intake manifold and then blame it on someone else? If they arent doing vipers any more its no wonder and its no surprise. So what we know is that Apex has done two of these engine packages. One is on one of their employees car which is for sale? :rolleyes: Wonder why. And the other one is the Mash's car. Gee what percentage failure is that?
 

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Can't believe the sonsabitches are saying things about DLM!!!!!
Doug is my Buddha...my Ravi Shankar...my great OZ.

Just thought you'd like to know.

Clark
 

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I'm happy my car is stock and if I ever have the money to mod it my money will go to Heffner or DLM.
 

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The Mash's car blew up huh?

BBBWWWAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHA! well that just breaks my heart.
 

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Isn't APEX the company selling aluminum valve covers for the Viper...for like $1,100 per set????
 

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SeriousEric said:
The Mash's car blew up huh?

BBBWWWAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHA! well that just breaks my heart.
/images/graemlins/greddy.gif I didn't know you two were lovers! Did he dump on you?

/images/graemlins/laughing.gif

Actually - engine did not blow up - but it had to be torn down before it did, and requires about $7k of work to fix.

I don't know MASH at all - sounds like he's made a couple of friends in the Viper community by the odd comment here and there.

Whatever - whoever the customer is - it does not excuse APEX. :bonk:
 

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Torquemonster said:
SeriousEric said:
The Mash's car blew up huh?

BBBWWWAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHA! well that just breaks my heart.
/images/graemlins/greddy.gif I didn't know you two were lovers! Did he dump on you?
Oh not me, per se. Just you, me, America ... nothing much.
 

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I'll bet he's really pissed at Americans now. Probably wondering how much flying lessons would cost.
 

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First of all, let me state up front that I am a friend of Bill's and have been for a long time. However, that doesn't change the fact that Bill is a man of integrity and IF one of his shop's installs was faulty, he would certainly step up and do the right thing, no matter what.

The situation started on a message board, without any communication to Bill, despite what anyone else says. If it had started between Bill and Mash the way it should have, I bet there wouldn't have been an issue - as Bill would have taken care of it. At this point it looks like a campaign to discredit another tuner, and since Bill is taking a stand against how shitty the whole thing was handled, it looks like its working.

Despite what anyone says, Apex is a first class operation and Bill is a first class guy. It is true that Apex is not taking any new Viper customers. Its also true that they build the most powerful NA Vipers around - with first class custom parts and process.


Oh, and Bill sells the CNCd aluminum Viper stuff for another club member who has a machine shop. You figure out how much it costs to CNC two blocks of aluminum into custom valve covers. If you don't want to pay that, don't, but don't make fun of something you don't know shit about.

Just had to get that off my chest. What no one is saying here is that the situation was handled completely wrong by the customer - so IMO - its tough shit. Its just a shame Bill's name and shop has to take the brunt of it.
 

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Mark Young said:
First of all, let me state up front that I am a friend of Bill's and have been for a long time. However, that doesn't change the fact that Bill is a man of integrity and IF one of his shop's installs was faulty, he would certainly step up and do the right thing, no matter what.

The situation started on a message board, without any communication to Bill, despite what anyone else says. If it had started between Bill and Mash the way it should have, I bet there wouldn't have been an issue - as Bill would have taken care of it. At this point it looks like a campaign to discredit another tuner, and since Bill is taking a stand against how shitty the whole thing was handled, it looks like its working.

Despite what anyone says, Apex is a first class operation and Bill is a first class guy. It is true that Apex is not taking any new Viper customers. Its also true that they build the most powerful NA Vipers around - with first class custom parts and process.


Oh, and Bill sells the CNCd aluminum Viper stuff for another club member who has a machine shop. You figure out how much it costs to CNC two blocks of aluminum into custom valve covers. If you don't want to pay that, don't, but don't make fun of something you don't know shit about.

Just had to get that off my chest. What no one is saying here is that the situation was handled completely wrong by the customer - so IMO - its tough shit. Its just a shame Bill's name and shop has to take the brunt of it.
Mark,

I hear what you are saying, and I have talked to 2 out of the 3 parties involved in this whole thing. I can't say I see Bill as a man of integrity. You say it started on a message board without any communication to Bill "despite what anyone else says". So basically you are saying that Jason Heffner and Mash are lying when they said they were trying to call Bill for 2 weeks and not getting any return calls. I know Jason and Bill talked at length before this ever went on the forum, and the only reason it did was because nobody was able to get an answer from Bill, and he pointed the finger at others.

Why would anyone have an ulterior motive to discredit Apex?

From what I know this situation is pretty cut and dry. The cam change had nothing to do with the problem that happened and actually the change was in part due to the problem, because the car ran like crap and Mash wanted a different cam. But Bill is suggesting the cam change could have been the problem?

If Bill is a man of integrity, why doesn't he just answer the question I asked, which was "IF it is shown that there was extrude material in the intake, WILL you then pay for the repair". He hasn't answered, but he HAS pointed the finger at a bunch of others. Why not just work with those involved to get this straightened out rather than running and hiding behind small print?

Doesn't make sense he would do this if he has nothing to hide. And Mark, I respect the fact that he is your friend, but I think you are hearing one side of this story, and a very very biased one at that. Bill WAS contacted before any of this hit the board, and chose to do nothing about it.
 

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Chuck 98 RT10 said:
I'll bet he's really pissed at Americans now. Probably wondering how much flying lessons would cost.
There's this national treasure of a stock tank up on the 4B and it would absolutely be a death blow to America if some disgruntled, motor all blown up ********* flew a plane into it. I sure hope that never happens. Oh and please please please spare our sacred Christian pigs in the South East corner.

Sincerely,

Stinger Battery #3,
4B ranch, Ovalo Texas.
 

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SRT Mike said:
Mark,

I hear what you are saying, and I have talked to 2 out of the 3 parties involved in this whole thing. I can't say I see Bill as a man of integrity. You say it started on a message board without any communication to Bill "despite what anyone else says". So basically you are saying that Jason Heffner and Mash are lying when they said they were trying to call Bill for 2 weeks and not getting any return calls. I know Jason and Bill talked at length before this ever went on the forum, and the only reason it did was because nobody was able to get an answer from Bill, and he pointed the finger at others.

Why would anyone have an ulterior motive to discredit Apex?

From what I know this situation is pretty cut and dry. The cam change had nothing to do with the problem that happened and actually the change was in part due to the problem, because the car ran like crap and Mash wanted a different cam. But Bill is suggesting the cam change could have been the problem?

If Bill is a man of integrity, why doesn't he just answer the question I asked, which was "IF it is shown that there was extrude material in the intake, WILL you then pay for the repair". He hasn't answered, but he HAS pointed the finger at a bunch of others. Why not just work with those involved to get this straightened out rather than running and hiding behind small print?

Doesn't make sense he would do this if he has nothing to hide. And Mark, I respect the fact that he is your friend, but I think you are hearing one side of this story, and a very very biased one at that. Bill WAS contacted before any of this hit the board, and chose to do nothing about it.

I can fully admit I'm biased. The point is, if you thought there was something wrong with your car, wouldn't you contact the tuner that did the package? And wouldn't you be concerned about your warranty and make sure it was followed? Letting another tuner change cams twice and do this and that and then finally break the motor down - only to then blame the original tuner? Especially when you know the car left Apex running in top shape with a given power level.

Although I'm biased, I am willing to admit that if it is honing material then it would seem that Extrude Hone, and thus Apex, is the culprit. The problem we all have is that everything is secondhand and the story changes every time its told. For example - it used to be metal shavings that were found. Now the story goes that it was sand. The wording of the warranty and the practice of sending the motor back untouched exists just for this reason.

What if the situation was reversed? Imagine if Apex tore a heffner car apart and blamed heffner without giving him the chance to do the teardown.

I'm not saying one or the other tuner is lying, or lacks integrity, but its obvious the whole thing was handled wrong, possibly by both sides.
 

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Schadenfreude Connoisseur
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Mark Young said:
First of all, let me state up front that I am a friend of Bill's and have been for a long time. However, that doesn't change the fact that Bill is a man of integrity and IF one of his shop's installs was faulty, he would certainly step up and do the right thing, no matter what.

The situation started on a message board, without any communication to Bill, despite what anyone else says. If it had started between Bill and Mash the way it should have, I bet there wouldn't have been an issue - as Bill would have taken care of it. At this point it looks like a campaign to discredit another tuner, and since Bill is taking a stand against how shitty the whole thing was handled, it looks like its working.

Despite what anyone says, Apex is a first class operation and Bill is a first class guy. It is true that Apex is not taking any new Viper customers. Its also true that they build the most powerful NA Vipers around - with first class custom parts and process.


Oh, and Bill sells the CNCd aluminum Viper stuff for another club member who has a machine shop. You figure out how much it costs to CNC two blocks of aluminum into custom valve covers. If you don't want to pay that, don't, but don't make fun of something you don't know shit about.

Just had to get that off my chest. What no one is saying here is that the situation was handled completely wrong by the customer - so IMO - its tough shit. Its just a shame Bill's name and shop has to take the brunt of it.
Mark,
You may think that Bill is a man of integrity,but I witnessed this whole thing unravel via telephone and during 2 separate trips to Heffner's. I remember Jason Heffner describing what the mash's car had dynoed over the telephone the day it dynoed after the supercharger. RedsnakeGTS and I both arrived at Heffners and saw the Mash's car the day it completed the camshaft swap. It was VERIFIED from the mash who was there that the car had driveability issues with the other cam in place. THEN I went back when Eric was getting ready to take delivery on his car and we both saw the extrude hone grit in the Mash's intake manifold. Moreover Eric and I actually got a SAMPLE of the extrude hone material by putting our fingers into the intake manifold. THATS FIRST HAND! Guess who did the extrude hone on the intake manifold? (heres a hint, it wasnt Heffner). Are you insinuating that Jason Heffner had ANYTHING to do with this? Come on...PUHLEEZE. Show me a couple of apex cars that actually make some decent power. I'll show you several heffner cars putting WELL OVER 700RWHP for every 1 broken or working apex car. Apex went on the other thread and said that the oil pan was tapped...if you look under ANY heffner car you will see that our oil pans are REMOVED and then tapped, and threaded for AN fittings, just looking at the install would show you this cant be done in place with the pan installed on the car. Come on, the basis for your argument is "you know him" versus we actually SAW hard empiracle evidence. From the looks of things how could you say that he would be a man of integrity. From what I can see wouldnt you say that not only is he he not stepping up to the plate but seems to be insinuating another perfectly good tuner is at fault for their negligence?
 
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