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Need technical advice!
Old August 16th, 2007, 10:20 PM   #1
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Need technical advice!

For the last 6 months I've been trying to figure out a major loss of power issue on the viper. I've replaced the Aem, fuel pump, valve springs, filter, coil pack, plugs and wires with no real resolution. In the last 3 months the issue became worse. The car used have what seemed like misfires only towards the higher rpms, 3500 to 5k. Now the car misfires right off idle and once in gear, under load misfires very badly. The compression was checked and reported 110 to 120 on all cylinders. Some said this was too low and it had made me think that it was the cause of my problems. But the car does not smoke and has no excessive or even noticable blow by out of the breathers. I've cracked pistons on F.I cars and they smoked like crazy and make smoke stacks out of the breathers. When driving the car today I noticed that when the clutch was in and motor free of load the car revved to 6k perfectly and sounded great, no misfires at all! But as soon as I try to get on it the car wont rev past 4k and sounds like a lawnmower. I've always thought that it had something to do with the ignition system, electrical etc. What I want to know is what I should check for? Could it be a bad Aem harness? Crank sensor? Has anyone else had any similar problems like this?
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Old August 16th, 2007, 10:40 PM   #2
 
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sounds ignition related to me,mabe blowing out spark when under load(higher cyl pressures) and ok free reving.. is this car na. or turbo/supercharged?
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Old August 16th, 2007, 10:50 PM   #3
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sounds ignition related to me,mabe blowing out spark when under load(higher cyl pressures) and ok free reving.. is this car na. or turbo/supercharged?
It's a TT. I've thought about the blowing the spark out problem but the car seems to have small misfires as soon as I let the clutch out with the most of the problems at WOT. I can get the car to rev higher if I only apply 1/4 throttle and let the rpms build gradually.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 10:56 PM   #4
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your compression is 50-60 lbs too low and that is HUGE. do a leakdown test. since no (apparent) oil burning, check valve seal. You should also check MAP sensor.

Last edited by GTS Dean; August 16th, 2007 at 11:01 PM.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 11:28 PM   #5
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I told him three months ago to do a leakdown test, then call Jason Heffner
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Old August 16th, 2007, 11:29 PM   #6
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Dumb question but does the car for whatever bizarre reason have cats on it?


What size injectors are on it? have they been replaced or at least flowed and checked to be sure they still function properly?

Check the map sensor as Dean said


Forget compression numbers, how is the leakdown %? You may not a broken a piston but it's possible the rings are toast.


Have you thought about pulling the wastegate springs, plugging a stock pcm and stock map sensor into it, and see if the situation goes away? Yes it will be at stock power, but process of elimination might help narrow it down.

If you drive it around for a while, then let it sit for a while... does it smoke out the exhaust on startup for just a few seconds? Have someone start the car and see if it puffs a hint of blue smoke out the back.

How does the air/fuel look when it starts missing? have you pulled any datalogs to see where it's at when the problem starts?


Did the car ever get sent back to Heff?
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Old August 17th, 2007, 02:22 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ROGUE GTS View Post
Dumb question but does the car for whatever bizarre reason have cats on it?

The car does not have cats.

What size injectors are on it? have they been replaced or at least flowed and checked to be sure they still function properly?

I'm not sure the size or if the injectors have been tested, but if they were bad would the car still rev as good as it does in nuetral?

Check the map sensor as Dean said

I believe it was checked and working properly

Forget compression numbers, how is the leakdown %? You may not a broken a piston but it's possible the rings are toast.

I don't think it had a leakdown test, but if the rings were toast wouldn't it get some serious blow by? Which is does not.

Have you thought about pulling the wastegate springs, plugging a stock pcm and stock map sensor into it, and see if the situation goes away? Yes it will be at stock power, but process of elimination might help narrow it down.

Thank's! I have sent the AEM back several times and I remember Valaya saying that they plugged the stock pcm back in and the car felt better but they didn't want to get on it in fear of it running lean. That's why they kept sending the AEM back.

If you drive it around for a while, then let it sit for a while... does it smoke out the exhaust on startup for just a few seconds? Have someone start the car and see if it puffs a hint of blue smoke out the back.

No the car does not smoke, it has smoked on startup maybe 3 times since I've owned it and has done it when it was running good. The last 100+ times I've started it I've seen no smoke, even under WOT, nothing.

How does the air/fuel look when it starts missing? have you pulled any datalogs to see where it's at when the problem starts?

Valaya Racing had it on a dyno a few months back when it was running better than it is now and reported the AFR's were perfect.

Did the car ever get sent back to Heff?
No it hasn't. I would love to send the car back to him but don't have the money to do it right now. I've thought about doing a basic rebuild locally to save money but I'm afraid it's going to run the same way. I would like to figure out the problem, the way it's running just doesn't seem like a piston problem. Thanks for your advice, I'm going to get the stock pcm hooked back up.[/quote]
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Old August 17th, 2007, 02:29 AM   #8
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I told him three months ago to do a leakdown test, then call Jason Heffner
Trust me I would want nothing more than to send it back to him, but it's $2500 each way from Ca to Fl. I'm just hoping it's something that I can get fixed locally. I haven't done a leakdown because I've been thinking it needs a rebuild and the car has just been sitting, but after driving it today the problem does not seem compression related. If the pistons were toast and I'm pumping boost into the cylinders I would be getting a shitload of oil smoke out of my catch can breather, I'm not. A motor with low compression would be down on power, but it shouldn't be acting like this car is.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 02:33 AM   #9
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Just be sure you yank those wg springs so it doesn't make any boost, effectively turning it into an N/A car.

Where in CA are you?


Compression tests take into account many different things, valve guides, valve/lifter/cam lift, compression ratio etc. aka the overall pumping efficiency of the engine with no combustion. Thus the numbers can vary quite a bit based on the setup and potential issues.

Leakdown tests are done with both valves closed and the piston at BDC. It not only measures the cylinder leakage, but by carefully listening to various areas you can hear where the leaks are occurring.

Hear air coming out of the catch can breather... it's most likely rings.
Hear it in the exhaust, and you have a burnt exhaust valve/seat or wasted guide.

In effect they do test the same things, but it's just a more refined approach to tracking down the issue.

Is the valvetrain any louder than it origionally was? a lot of chatter or anything? Spent a lot of time on the rev limiter or hit valve float?
Might be worth rolling a few pushrods on a pane of glass.

also... do you have a fuel pressure gauge on the car?

I know you checked the afr on the dyno... but get someone who knows what they are looking at to ride along with you and datalog things with a laptop. It would be very interesting to see exactly whats going on when it starts this loaded misfire. By checking a few things, like the flow rate of every injector, fuel pressure, and how the afr is effected, you can at least start narrowing the list down.

A miss under load is only caused by two things (assuming the motor isn't hurt) and thats fuel (too much or too little) and/or no spark.

The approach of throwing a ton of new parts at it rarely does more than deplete your bank account. Have a method to your search and the culprit will reveal its self without too much effort.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 02:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROGUE GTS View Post
Just be sure you yank those wg springs so it doesn't make any boost, effectively turning it into an N/A car.

Where in CA are you?

I'm in Walnut Creek about 30 min from SF

Compression tests take into account many different things, valve guides, valve/lifter/cam lift, compression ratio etc. aka the overall pumping efficiency of the engine with no combustion. Thus the numbers can vary quite a bit based on the setup and potential issues.

Leakdown tests are done with both valves closed and the piston at BDC. It not only measures the cylinder leakage, but by carefully listening to various areas you can hear where the leaks are occurring.

Hear air coming out of the catch can breather... it's most likely rings.
Hear it in the exhaust, and you have a burnt exhaust valve/seat or wasted guide.

In effect they do test the same things, but it's just a more refined approach to tracking down the issue.

Is the valvetrain any louder than it origionally was? a lot of chatter or anything? Spent a lot of time on the rev limiter or hit valve float?
Might be worth rolling a few pushrods on a pane of glass.

No the valve train sounds fine and when I had the valve springs replaced the pushrods were fine. I have thought the cam might be going flat but then again I would most likely hear valve noise and the motor wouldn't rev so good in nuetral like it does.

also... do you have a fuel pressure gauge on the car?

Yes it does, around 45psi. I've had the fuel pump replaced twice now because the first replacement was making noise.

I know you checked the afr on the dyno... but get someone who knows what they are looking at to ride along with you and datalog things with a laptop. It would be very interesting to see exactly whats going on when it starts this loaded misfire. By checking a few things, like the flow rate of every injector, fuel pressure, and how the afr is effected, you can at least start narrowing the list down.

Yes I'm going to do this asap. A friend has had my laptop for months now and I just got it back.

A miss under load is only caused by two things (assuming the motor isn't hurt) and thats fuel (too much or too little) and/or no spark.

Yup, I'll start with getting the laptop plugged in and have the injectors flowed. It just wierd how good it revs when its not loaded.

The approach of throwing a ton of new parts at it rarely does more than deplete your bank account. Have a method to your search and the culprit will reveal its self without too much effort.
This has been my story, about 12k in the last 6 months including replacing the half shafts, fixing oil and coolant leaks on a turbo and everything I've listed above, all the while getting nothing in return. I really miss the car
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Old August 17th, 2007, 03:03 AM   #11
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It's a roller cam, other than a lifter blowing up there is nothing you can do to hurt it. The 'going flat' is a nonexistant issue.


Hmm, SF huh.

If the injectors were having issues they very well could flow plenty of fuel under no load on a quick rev to keep it happy. But toss a bunch of boost in there and not only are they trying to pump out a ton more fuel, but at a higher pressure as well. It's not a likely cause, but at this point it's easy enough to check and mark it off the list of possible issues.

I don't know if you plan to tackle these issues yourself or just take it to a shop. If you want to go the shop route, IMO it would be wise to take a trip to Vegas and drop it off with Garth. Short trip, good guy, and fuck all it's vegas.

Feel free to shoot me a pm or hit me up on aim (same tag name) if you have any questions about it.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 04:12 AM   #12
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It's a roller cam, other than a lifter blowing up there is nothing you can do to hurt it. The 'going flat' is a nonexistant issue.

OK well that's one less thing to worry about.

Hmm, SF huh.

If the injectors were having issues they very well could flow plenty of fuel under no load on a quick rev to keep it happy. But toss a bunch of boost in there and not only are they trying to pump out a ton more fuel, but at a higher pressure as well. It's not a likely cause, but at this point it's easy enough to check and mark it off the list of possible issues.

I don't know if you plan to tackle these issues yourself or just take it to a shop. If you want to go the shop route, IMO it would be wise to take a trip to Vegas and drop it off with Garth. Short trip, good guy, and fuck all it's vegas.

Feel free to shoot me a pm or hit me up on aim (same tag name) if you have any questions about it.
Thank's for all the help. I can't wait to get this car back to doing what it's supposed to do!
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Old August 17th, 2007, 05:47 AM   #13
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Darius,
Start with replacing the MAP, TPS. They are cheap enough and even though thay may have been checked, the problem might be intermit enough so that th escanner won't find it. Here is a thread on the other board that fixed a problem just like yours, specifically post #8 by Ruckdr:

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Old August 17th, 2007, 07:19 AM   #14
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What plugs are you running, BTW? Wires... Keep it simple... start with the basics...

again.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 07:43 AM   #15
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Also, found by RedSRT007; MAP for the 1500 Dodge ram with a 5.9 uses the same one....40 bucks instead of 150.00 for a 'viper'. Same part number, different name. Dodge Ram 1997-2002 V8 360ci 5.9L F/I NOT Diesel

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Old August 17th, 2007, 07:44 AM   #16
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misfire is typically ignition,but could be valve train releated as well. Your compression is low,even if you have 8:1 pistons (which I dont think you do) A leakdown will tell you here the compression loss is from (headgasket, rings, valve train, ect...) How do the plugs look are they white, carbon foulded, wet? You may even have an injector blocked open (I have had that a couple times) This will cause a misfire as the injector will bled fuel. You will still have a good A/F ratio as the o2's will send a rich signal and your pcm will trim fuel to compensate for the injector stuck open.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 08:11 AM   #17
 
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Also, found by RedSRT007; MAP for the 1500 Dodge ram with a 5.9 uses the same one....40 bucks instead of 150.00 for a 'viper'. Same part number, different name.

That's a good tip except for the fact that this car has a GM 3 bar sensor on it. MAP sensor operation can easily be monitored through the AEM as can the TPS.

This is crazy! I have made numerous attempts to help with this matter. I've even lined up transportation at discounted prices. Continuing to replace part after part without knowing exactly what the issue is is ridiculous. To date there has been enough money spent on not fixing anything to have sent the car back and forth, had it fixed and you still would have saved thousands not to mention the numerous months that you would have been able to enjoy the car.

I really want to help with this but the car needs to come here and based on the above posts I can't understand how you can afford not to do so.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 08:17 AM   #18
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My first thought is MAP related.

it is possible for a sensor to "appear" ok upon inspection visually and electrically, however it will have dead spots in its range in operation that you can't see easily.

Like someone else mentioned, they are cheap enough that I would replace both TPS and MAP just to rule them out.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 08:41 AM   #19
 
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There are endless possibilities that "might" be the problem. What needs to happen here is to get the car to a competent technician that is capable of actually diagnosing the problem instead of wasting thousands of dollars playing pin the tail on the donkey with a ninety thousand dollar car.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 08:52 AM   #20
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1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points1TONY1 is not afraid of bears with 9112 points
Rep Power: 80
1. Leak down test
2. Does it still have stock injector connectors ? MSD connectors = much better
3. Send me the injectors and lets make sure they are ok. At worse, they will be cleaned and checked for $120



Last edited by 1TONY1; August 17th, 2007 at 09:07 AM.
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