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96 GTS 511 NA 675 w/150 shot: OE or OE Gen 3 Fuel Pump?

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96 GTS 511 NA 675 w/150 shot: OE or OE Gen 3 Fuel Pump?
Old December 30th, 2019, 01:31 PM   #1
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96 GTS 511 NA 675 w/150 shot: OE or OE Gen 3 Fuel Pump?

Is this a good idea?

I don't want to give up the 2-stage feature of the OE pump. (This rules out Walbro, etc. right?)

However, I read a highly detailed thread about putting a Gen 3 pump in a GTS basket. 850hp ona single Viper fuel pump installation outline

Supposedly Gen 1-2 is 190 lph and Gen 3 is 255 lhp AND 2-stage.

I haven't researched the fusing and current demands. Anyone?

They talk about using pieces from a Gen 3 basket for the install. I don't have one, can I fabricate them?

Also faced with having car at friends auto service garage and can't have it clogging up a bay indefinitely.
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Old December 30th, 2019, 03:17 PM   #2
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You might wanna look into dual pumps for that application. Don't go cheap on fuel with a nitrous car.
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Old December 30th, 2019, 03:49 PM   #3
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Old December 30th, 2019, 05:12 PM   #4
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Those systems aren't 2-stage and don't fill the basket when fuel is low. They also require electrical mods.

Car has 90k @ 123 15# bottles through it without any issues.

I don't need an upgrade at all. But if I cannot find an OE module or pump and have to mod. The Gen 3 255 upgrade from 190 lhp sounds like the sensible way to go.

It's just that I don't know if the Gen 3 is a 2-stage pump.

90k & 123 15# bottles later there have been no problems on a stock pump?
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Old December 30th, 2019, 06:20 PM   #5
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Old December 30th, 2019, 06:22 PM   #6
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i bought a gen 5 fuel pump canister, and frankinstine it onto a gen2 hanger. then i put the walbro 525 inside the gen 5 canister. that way it still has a fuel basket, but a lot bigger fuel pump without having to go through the hassle of running 2 pumps.

Last edited by b3rndtt0ast; December 30th, 2019 at 06:31 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2019, 10:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b3rndtt0ast View Post
i bought a gen 5 fuel pump canister, and frankinstine it onto a gen2 hanger. then i put the walbro 525 inside the gen 5 canister. that way it still has a fuel basket, but a lot bigger fuel pump without having to go through the hassle of running 2 pumps.
Wouldn't the 525 fit i the Gen 2 hanger? (Do you have the early or late model Gen 2? I think 2000-2002 is the late model. (I'm not an expert but although yours looks like what I think is an early Gen 2, I'm not sure.)
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Old December 30th, 2019, 10:34 PM   #8
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the 525 does not have the 2nd stage you could cut the canister up and just hang the pump inside of it. but it would no longer keep the basket full of fuel.
1997 gts

here is some info for the gen 3 (walbro 255) into a gen 2
https://www.viperclub.org/vca/thread...utline.665173/
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Old December 30th, 2019, 10:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b3rndtt0ast View Post
the 525 does not have the 2nd stage you could cut the canister up and just hang the pump inside of it. but it would no longer keep the basket full of fuel.
1997 gts

here is some info for the gen 3 (walbro 255) into a gen 2
https://www.viperclub.org/vca/thread...utline.665173/
b3rndtt0ast

That 850 thread didn't make it clear what Gen used 2-stage pumps. If they all use 2-stage, no reason to stop with a Gen 3 - move on to the 400 lph Gen 4/5.

QUESTION what generations use the 2-stage pump?

I am Hell-Bent on NOT giving up my Gen 2 builtin surge tank.
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Old December 31st, 2019, 07:00 AM   #10
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What do you mean by "2-stage" on the GEN-II pump? If you mean the dual fuel pick-up feature (bottom sock and side nipple) OK, but that to my definition is not a 2-stage feature. I do like the design on the 00-02 modual where the FPR keep the basket full (and pump cool). I run the OEM pump and under boost a second Walbro comes on...both in the OEM basket. Simple to do and for a NOS shot, you could do the same with your NOS triggers. No need to pump a massive amount of fuel around during normal driving. You just heat it up. IMO, fuel should be a demand-based system.
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Old December 31st, 2019, 09:23 AM   #11
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Here is the thread where I learned about the 2-stage pump: https://www.viperclub.org/vca/thread.../#post-3296249

The 2-stage pump has two pumps in the housing on the same shaft: 1) to pump fuel from the tank into the basket and 2) to pump fuel from the basket to the engine. The 1) pump keeps the basket full just like a surge tank does.

How the late Gen 2 has a completely different basket and possibly may not have a 2-stage pump - especially since you said that the Fuel Pump Return dumps into the basket. But this implies other issues:
  • It is unlikely there is a 1-stage pump that draws fuel from the basket because to keep the basket full, the FPR flow would have to exceed the flow used by the engine. You'd need >2X engine flow requirements.
  • If a 1-stage pump draws from the tank, the FPR flow would keep the pump submersed at low power settings and low tank fuel levels. Full power and low fuel level would begin to empty the basket "bucket."
  • RE: Gen 3: May or may not have a 2-stage pump - I've not been able to get this answered.
  • RE: Gen 4: Uses a 1-stage pump BUT there is an "ancillary" pump which is part of the basket that keeps it full. Also, post Gen 2 tanks have features in them that the early Gen 2 tanks do not have. This could be the "bucket" - hard to say since no documentation. It is possible the late Gen 2 tanks have these features since the basket/module is completely different from early Gen 2.

Another feature of the 2-stage pump is that both rotors turn at the same speed so their flow ratio is fairly constant IF a constant displacement pump - if centrifugal impeller then this is not true. Again, more information is needed. I'll be getting my FSM back in my possession later today and am hoping there is a cutaway of the pump and a description of how the system works. If that is present, then need to see what a Gen 3 FSM says and if a 2-stage pump is used.
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Old December 31st, 2019, 10:56 AM   #12
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Might be some subtile differences we are talking about. On my 01, the OEM pump is nothing special. No two vane pump design or anything crazy...just a simple pump with a model-specific pick-up design. It has a normal bottom-sock feed directly pulling from the tank at the bottom of the bucket assembly and a smaller, non-filtered side feed port that I guess is about 1/2 inch up on the side of the pump assembly (this feeds from fuel in the basket). One would surmise that both ports are drawing fuel at its max volumetric limit (190 ltr). Since fuel pump output is not variable, it pumps what it pumps at 13.8 volts. At idle it pumps the same as WOT. At idle most of the fuel is dumped right back into the basket by the FPR that sits on the top of the basket and is part of how the fuel line connects (returnless system). At WOT, the FPR is still dumping excess fuel back into the basket since WOT fuel demand is not more than the output of the 190 ltr OEM pump....UNTIL YOU START NEEDING MORE FUEL. That is where we are at. I did some calculations years ago regarding the actual fuel demands of various modifications and determioned most people are WAYYYY over pumping fuel. Not sure where or when I did that analysis. At any rate, the 00-02 GTS does not have a 2-stage pump...just a two port pick-up...one big one at the bottom of the basket and a smaller one on the side of the pump.

The Link by Jack B I'm very familiar with. He's talking about the early GEN-IIs. The 00-02 GEN-IIs are vastly different. No "bottle" as he describes. The bucket itself is the bottle....HUGE. No starvation issues with the later design.

Last edited by EllowViper; December 31st, 2019 at 11:03 AM.
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Old December 31st, 2019, 11:12 AM   #13
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THis is fun to play around with.
https://www.raceworks.com.au/calcula...mp-calculator/
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