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96 GTS: Engine dies in 60 seconds and 2 blocks from home

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96 GTS: Engine dies in 60 seconds and 2 blocks from home
Old December 20th, 2019, 06:49 PM   #1
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96 GTS: Engine dies in 60 seconds and 2 blocks from home

90k is mileage.

Cranks but nothing else.

After sitting at least 15 min, engine tries to start for about 0.1 seconds and then sputters and dies by 0.5 to 1.0 seconds.

This after 15 min was repeated 3 times.

Got it towed to friends garage business but won't get to it for a day or two or until after Xmas.

I'm hoping fuel pump.

NOTE: 200 miles ago, I got home from a cross country (CA to PA) drive car home. This could easily have happened during the trip. Me Very Lucky.
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Old December 20th, 2019, 08:45 PM   #2
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Could be something like a cam or crank sensor.

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Old December 20th, 2019, 11:27 PM   #3
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Just thinking about what sensors are essential for actually firing the engine - clearly Crank and Cam. Stuff like IAT, MAP, TPI, etc. server to "adjust" that firing.

Was considering since I had ALL hubs, tie rods, bushings, ball joints replaced - total rebuild - when car had 80k on it, maybe it would be a good idea to replace ALL sensors?
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Old December 21st, 2019, 07:05 AM   #4
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Yes and then keep the old sensors as spares.

Easier done one at a time when the car is working...

Could do the opposite I would assume youlol find it.

Also check fuel filter and pump perhaps system pressure etc
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Old December 21st, 2019, 09:25 AM   #5
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You can shoot some starting fluid in the TBs and see if it fires up and runs for a short time. That will tell you if you're getting fuel. Or pressure check the fuel line at the schrader valve.

If it does the same thing, then look to the cam and crank sensor.
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Old December 21st, 2019, 12:08 PM   #6
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  1. fuel
  2. spark
  3. compression

standard checks for all no starts and in that order since you can easily hook up a fuel pressure gauge or do the spark test first if you have starter fluid just like Mike said.

Moneys on crank sensor (spark circuit) if you got good fuel pressure.

if your buddies got a scope, have him back probe the sensors and check signal. can't remember the number of pulses you should see.
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Old December 22nd, 2019, 10:44 PM   #7
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When I was in NV before the trip home to PA, friend had the $15k big screen SnapOn scan tool and was looking at my crank sensor. The readings if I can remember were all over the place - here's the thread I posted back then: https://www.viperalley.com/forum/vip...k-trigger.html

We were having trouble getting my DRBIII to connect to car. Never figured out what was going on. Subsequently got the DRB to connect and was turning injectors off.

(Regarding that test, so you turn an injector off and you really want an average idle value but display is raw and idle is all over the place - nearly impossible to detect a small difference in idle to assess an injector.)

Do crank sensors have a history of failing around 100k miles? Ha, and nearly 25 years of age(!)

Last edited by Squid; December 22nd, 2019 at 10:49 PM.
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Old December 23rd, 2019, 10:35 AM   #8
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Crank sensors failure is not based on mileage. It is a hall effort type sensor that contains magnets and can become somewhat demagnetized, etc. Heat has wonderful effects on the properties on of materials.

From the picture, that scope trace in blue is not a crank nor cam signal and if the 5ms time base is the same for the red trace, neither is the red trace.

I do not have a service manual handy and cannot remember the exact number of teeth but Chrysler uses 32 or 58 pulses then a longer pulse then 32 or 58 pulse for the crank. This is on the newer motors. Check the service manual for the reluctor ring.
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Old December 23rd, 2019, 01:22 PM   #9
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All this is assuming there's gas in the tank?
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Old December 23rd, 2019, 04:02 PM   #10
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Here we are almost 2020,and still have people guessing at crap. Buy a damn scan tool with "live data" ,and cut out a lot of guesswork!
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Old December 23rd, 2019, 04:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRCFORCE327 View Post
Here we are almost 2020,and still have people guessing at crap. Buy a damn scan tool with "live data" ,and cut out a lot of guesswork!
not going to show you signal. you need to back probe the the sensor output.

pull the fuel pump relay or fuse and crank engine and see if you got rpm on tach or on the 'live data' of the scan tool.
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Old December 26th, 2019, 10:51 PM   #12
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I'm not really looking for what is wrong with my situation, but rather, what are common failures. Stuff like PS pump bracket and pulley except on the electronics side.

I've got a DRBIII w/PEP and even the deluxe pressure transducer kit.

It's full of gas but the suggestion of that points me at the fuel pump as the most likely failure.

The car since 2000 would sit for 50 weeks and then get driven a lot for 2 weeks each year. That "duty cycle" might have adverse effects on some components. And then I drove it home and put 2500 miles on it in 3.5 days.

The car is at my friend's garage 20 miles away and until we get it inside, nothing will be getting done. Work should begin beginning of next week.
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Old December 28th, 2019, 03:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squid View Post
I'm not really looking for what is wrong with my situation, but rather, what are common failures. Stuff like PS pump bracket and pulley except on the electronics side.

I've got a DRBIII w/PEP and even the deluxe pressure transducer kit.

It's full of gas but the suggestion of that points me at the fuel pump as the most likely failure.

The car since 2000 would sit for 50 weeks and then get driven a lot for 2 weeks each year. That "duty cycle" might have adverse effects on some components. And then I drove it home and put 2500 miles on it in 3.5 days.

The car is at my friend's garage 20 miles away and until we get it inside, nothing will be getting done. Work should begin beginning of next week.
If you have a DRBIII you already have everything you need mainly.

I forget exactly where it is, but under the engine section on the DRBIII is a setting to let you watch LIVE codes as the car is cranking. It'll show you any if something exists. Additionally, you'll want to see if you have RPMs registering when cranking on the DRBIII and also check to make sure the cam and crank sensor are in sync also. All of this can be seen in that engine section on the DRBIII.

From what ive been told the cam sensor is likely to crap out with heat/mileage and also fuel pump as well.

Also as everyone else said, check the basics (listen for fuel pump prime with key first turned on), check for spark at plugs when cranking and also fuel pressure at the capped off service port on the intake manifold (little flathead screwdriver and a rag will help test this easy).
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Old December 29th, 2019, 09:03 AM   #14
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Thanks for the DRB test suggestions.

IF I have to REPLACE FUEL FUMP, I'm thinking of a minor upgrade since with the 150 shot nitrous, engine dynoed 675 hp and it is said the OE pump is good for 600hp.

HOWEVER, I DO NOT want to install any fuel pump that will have less life expectancy (i.e. inferior quality such as aftermarket vs OE).

With that in mind, where do you shop for pumps and how to tell which ones fit.
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Old December 29th, 2019, 09:27 AM   #15
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Get the Walbro 450 GPH pump as a replacement. I have one for sale too if you go that route. otherwise get a Billet RSI triple in tank.
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Old December 29th, 2019, 09:51 AM   #16
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Not sure if anyone is even aware, Walbro now makes a single in tank 525 that makes triple pumps and dual pumps a thing of the past. Supports 1000whp supposedly.
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Old December 29th, 2019, 10:14 AM   #17
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What is stock lph?
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Old December 29th, 2019, 07:48 PM   #18
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UPDATE:

After car died, it never started again - would only crank and if having sat for at least 15 minutes, engine would "fire", sputter, an die in about 1 second total.

Tow to friends garage 8 miles away.

Try a few more times thinking tow may have jarred pump loose.

Ran battery down until solenoid clicked when Key on Crank.

Car sat 5 days.

Battery voltage 11.5

Put electronic charger on car for 3 hours @ 14.5v constant, 10 amps limit.

CAR STARTED with charger still on battery.
__________________

THEORY 1:
The 14.5v @ key on system pressurize was more than th typical 12.5-12.8 and enough to kick the pump over. (This might be a good pump test even at a higher voltage.)
REPLACE PUMP:

WALBRO:
NO LISTING FOR VIPER in their catalog or on their website.

On their site, they sell a 450 lph for most of $200 and warn HEAVILY COUNTERFEITED.

So IF there is one that fits, which model, and where to buy? Roe has a Walbro 400 lhp for $196 that fits all Vipers. Summit sells a 400 for the same price but on sale for $174 - same model? who knows. Roe says good for 820 rwhp which is more than what I'll ever need.

For the $25, I'll buy the Roe and give him the business.
EDIT:
____________________________________________

The Walbro 400 is an old design the 450 is e85 safe which sounds real good to me eve though I don't think I'll ever run E85 in my Viper - alcohol resistance: I want the most since who knows what swill will be coming out of pumps in the next 10 years.

Low vs High pressure unit: Really need OE fuel pump flow chart to compare to Walbro to make selection. Must see effect of 150 shot and outside chance I might boost <10 psi.

FUEL PRESSURE INSTRUMENTATION

I chuckle when my young tuner friends (I'm 67) scoff at a fuel pressure gauge. It would be nice to see how much dP the stock pump can maintain over the FPR setting - especially for 500-600 hp mods. The 3/8 fuel line sounds small to: @ max HP, that line could cost 5psi I'm guessing or even more.


Last edited by Squid; December 29th, 2019 at 08:59 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2019, 08:38 AM   #19
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I wouldn't count on voltage being the sole determinant of a good battery. I would also check the age of the battery. There is something goofy with Vipers and batteries. If the battery is still within it's expected life disconnect the terminals and wire brush them nice and clean.
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Old December 30th, 2019, 10:38 AM   #20
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The battery is 6 months old.

I still think the 14.5v from the charger is what kicked the fuel pump.
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