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96 GTS: Engine dies in 60 seconds and 2 blocks from home

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Old December 30th, 2019, 01:23 PM   #21
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This thread is drifting Off Topic into what kind of fuel pump to install. So that is going in a new thread.

OFF TOPIC:

I was strongly favoring a Walbro "upgrade" but just learned about how the OEM is a 2-stage pump. I DO NOT want to give that up.

So that leaves

A) Putting an OEM pump back in: WHERE TO BUY? Dealer only option? Are aftermarket pumps 2-stage?

OR

B) Modding in a Gen 3 OEM pump which supposedly increases flow from 190 to 255 lph AND is also 2-stage. Issues with this seem to be the Gen 3 module parts that are needed for the conversion.
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Old December 30th, 2019, 01:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck 98 RT10 View Post
I wouldn't count on voltage being the sole determinant of a good battery. I would also check the age of the battery. There is something goofy with Vipers and batteries. If the battery is still within it's expected life disconnect the terminals and wire brush them nice and clean.
As stated by Chuck, current is more important not the voltage. Load testing a battery tests current.
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Old December 30th, 2019, 01:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
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The battery is 6 months old.
Maybe it's installed backwards?

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Old December 30th, 2019, 04:03 PM   #24
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There is nothing wrong with the battery and if it was connected backwards, then Vipers run just fine with batteries put in backwards.

Again: Car quit running 2 blocks from home. Cranked but would not start. Cranked many minutes during repeated attempts to start until battery run down (solenoid clicked). Battery showed 11.5 volts at this point.

There is no reason to think there is a problem with the battery.

Battery put on charger for 3 hours, and then WITH CHARGER CONNECTED AND BATTERY AT 14.5 volts, PUMP STARTED and ENGINE STARTED.

If the pump bearings are wearing so that one day, there simply isn't enough torque to move the armature. In this case, a higher voltage will break the armature free and the pump will start. This is my explanation of the above mentioned events the conclusion of which is the fuel pump needs replaced.
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Old December 31st, 2019, 09:57 AM   #25
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14.5V with car not running (off) is too high. should be 12.8V max. with car running it will read ~14.5V +/- 0.1V or so as the alternator is charging it. system charging at higher voltages 14.8V>, will kill battery faster.
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Old December 31st, 2019, 12:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
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14.5V with car not running (off) is too high. should be 12.8V max. with car running it will read ~14.5V +/- 0.1V or so as the alternator is charging it. system charging at higher voltages 14.8V>, will kill battery faster.
It says the battery read 14.5V with the charger connected.
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Old December 31st, 2019, 01:12 PM   #27
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Why not replace the battery, just to be sure?
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Old December 31st, 2019, 02:21 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daaam View Post
It says the battery read 14.5V with the charger connected.
My mistake. I read it and missed it because the voltage at the battery with the charger on it is not relevant even thought it started.

Since it is at his buddies garage, I let them figure it out.
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Old December 31st, 2019, 04:03 PM   #29
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Further testing NEW THEORY:

Car is Flooding.

Including and since the initial problem, a cold start results in a massive pig rich, pegs Roe VEC1 A/F LED gauge, will not idle, have to blip throttle to keep running - all this for about 1 minute.

The 2 blocks from home was less than a minute and while car was running very rough, when I came to a stop sign, I wasn't prepared for a failure to idle shut down.

Car now flooded.

Subsequent attempts would throw more cold shot and flood some more.

Only after hours off, would it start.

We confirmed this when I was moving it around the garage and I let it try to idle and it failed. Then it wouldn't start. So I Key On pressurized the fuel rails, then vented them down via Shrader valve (pressure spiked to 59 psi and then dropped to 47 when Key On & pressure tested.

Then I quickly started the car with minimal time at Key On. It then started but with a touch of roughness. Again wouldn't idle until about 2 minutes into warm up which corresponded with the LED A/F Gauge swinging from pig rich to max lean and then starting to scan. NOTE: my O2's are in the long tube collectors, not in one of the tubes.

In open loop, OBDII is not going to tell me anything about what is going on.

To make matters worse, my DRBIII and friend's SnapOn scan tool would not communicate with the PCM.

Sucks to be me.
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Old January 1st, 2020, 02:55 AM   #30
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Pull plugs. They ALL wet or just 1 or 2? Could have injectors failed in the open position. Happened to me. Had to replace just 1. But ran like shit. Also cam and crank sensors tells ecu when to spray fuel and spark . if it's bad, it will flood all cyl if it fires at all. All injectors flooded? then think crank/ cam sensors. I doubt it would be 02 sensors saying you are lean and requesting extra fuel but it's possible too.

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Old January 1st, 2020, 12:10 PM   #31
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Drlee50,

I was thinking injectors too, but it seems to be flooding only during the cold, EDIT: OPEN loop start phase - once 1-2 minutes have passed, A/F transitions from pegged pig rich to dead lean and starts oscillating. At this point, engine idles and runs without issue although it does need a tune badly - heads, cam, headers, exhaust w/OE tune and Roe VEC 1 MAP translator.

ALSO, scan tools cannot comunnicate wtth PCM right now. This happened before my 2500 trip, and then the next day my DRBIII worked just fine. Then I made the trip. Now no communication again. I was looking in my FSM and Diag manuals for PCM testing procedure and haven't found them. I'll assume they are there. One would think the DRBIII would issue messages if there were any issues with the port pins.

Another note: when communcation was made before trip, friend look at crank trigger with his snap on and the readings were all over the place. He said there definitely was something wrong and the the CT looked suspect. But the car ran fine more or less, so I dismissed that theory. It did the 2500 mile trip w/o a single incident.

Boy am I lucky. About 200 miles after trip, all this happens.

Last edited by Squid; January 2nd, 2020 at 07:37 PM.
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 12:03 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squid View Post
Drlee50,

I was thinking injectors too, but it seems to be flooding only during the cold, closed loop start phase - once 1-2 minutes have passed, A/F transitions from pegged pig rich to dead lean and starts oscillating. At this point, engine idles and runs without issue although it does need a tune badly - heads, cam, headers, exhaust w/OE tune and Roe VEC 1 MAP translator.

ALSO, scan tools cannot comunnicate wtth PCM right now. This happened before my 2500 trip, and then the next day my DRBIII worked just fine. Then I made the trip. Now no communication again. I was looking in my FSM and Diag manuals for PCM testing procedure and haven't found them. I'll assume they are there. One would think the DRBIII would issue messages if there were any issues with the port pins.

Another note: when communcation was made before trip, friend look at crank trigger with his snap on and the readings were all over the place. He said there definitely was something wrong and the the CT looked suspect. But the car ran fine more or less, so I dismissed that theory. It did the 2500 mile trip w/o a single incident.

Boy am I lucky. About 200 miles after trip, all this happens.
So one thing i noticed is i had problems connecting via DRB3 to my car many times. It would work ocassionally and other times it wouldnt for no good reason, which made me think it was a bad connection.

I had an aftermarket radio installed by the previous owner. I removed that and rewired a new one in anyway and never saw the drb3 comms problem again. I don't know exactly what might have been wrong with the previous radio tbh
but it was acting up and not ejecting cds and the motor was running a little longer than it should when spitting out discs. Could have been some abnormal power draw.

Anyhow, reason i mention this is, i've seen others here say that too much draw/load from the ignition switch and or radio causes funky stuff to happen when trying to communicate with the PCM, and i experienced exactly that. This may not be your problem, but its something to check.
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 07:39 PM   #33
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I was talking with a tuner friend and he commented an radios that shut down communications.

However some people power radios from the K-line communication pin which when quiet shows battery voltage. IF a load is put here, it will shut down communications.
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Old January 7th, 2020, 06:30 PM   #34
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FLOODING THEORY:

I went from Champion to NGK plugs - the NGKs foul during the open look rich startup - the Champions don't.

The NGK do not have as much extended tip as the Champions and I believe the mostly likely explanation is that nothing has changed in this engine which has always ran pig rich other than the plugs.

I've had this car since 2002 and have put 30k on it (90k now) drivin it 2-3 weeks per year when I visit NV (I just drove it 2500 miles back to PA) and it has NEVER had any ignition, fueling, emissions issues needed repair.

Did anything change? becomes a legitimate question.

ANSWER: Yes, plugs. I'm going with that for now.
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Old January 8th, 2020, 09:27 AM   #35
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Maybe the battery is in upside down?
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Old January 8th, 2020, 09:44 PM   #36
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Pulled the NGK's and got Champion rc12lyc I believe (correct for Gen 2).

The NGK's were loaded with carbon.

keep in mind, I've moved the car in and out of the garage a number of days without issue as long as I was quick on the throttle when the engine would not like to idle for the first 30 seconds after cold start.

So these short runs never make it to closed loop to burn off the carbon.

ALSO, DRB finally connected and all the year specific diagnosis was working.

Absolutely no idea why now. Only thing I noticed was I had the charger on and the battery voltage was 14.5v.

Also ALL the ISO 9141-2 info I've read, like the Vbat and 0 being the Hi and Lo on the K-line is NOT TRUE. The guy at B&G said communications was done w/5v which is now exactly what I found. Generic Scan Tool communications is done with Vbat and 0 but there are small signal trains at something like 2v and 4v.

Since the DRB is working, I have to assume this behavior is correct.

It is very irritating that after days of internet research I found absolutely NO DESCRIPTION OF THIS!
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Old January 9th, 2020, 01:49 PM   #37
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One thing to make sure is that idle isn't set too low. My car over time the screws on the throttle bodies slowly loosened to a point where my car would shut off when idling. I adjusted screws slightly and it ran perfect. This probably isn't your problem but just a thought.
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Old January 9th, 2020, 02:45 PM   #38
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I also "reset" the VEC1 - set to zero, disconnect battery, reconnect.

Started right up idled immediately, pulled it out of garage and before I could park it in the lot, the A/F came off Rich and swung to lean.

So is this for real? or still intermittent but good now only because it just connected to the DRB III yesterday?

Will be driving it from shop to home - about 15 min drive residential, 7 miles maybe.
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Old April 23rd, 2020, 01:22 AM   #39
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Could be something like a cam or crank sensor.
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Old April 23rd, 2020, 12:53 PM   #40
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Final Conclusion & Plan: NGK plugs fouled and car flooded. Went back to Champions. Car is a 1999 TNT Head Cam Headers Exhaust 511 whp w/o a tune - only VEC 1. Planning to get a canned tune from B&G Performance (Dave Kasper) Michigan. Covid19, backlog of critical home maintenance projects, injured knee, and Old Age are slowing me down.
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