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SCT Canned Tune-what type of power gains

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Old January 24th, 2017, 08:12 PM   #21
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LOL, well, I see I am getting tossed under the bus here lmao.

Clean Up, Aisle Five!

1. The Speedo Cal is part of the Hardware Config. SCT cannot access it, and I never bothered with our software to try and track it down either. Dan Cragin is probably one of, if not the, only guys out there with the original software and emulator to actually change certain hardware config items. The Viper platform is "aged" at this point, and it makes a bad business case to pump a ton of time into tracking down a few straggling items unfortunately, especially since it only applies to 1996-2002.

2. Low Speed Bucking is VERY normal on 708 cammed Gen-2's. The Creampuffs are not as bad, but in either case, the 1000-1500RPM range in low gears at steady-state is the culprit. A lot if going on in that range, between adaptive trimming and off-idle ignition changes, there are a lot of "surge triggers". Gears and Flywheels make it worse, cams make it worse. Blowers make it better, smaller cams make it better, heavier flywheels and stock gears make it better. Dave's situation is unique, and cannot be compared because of the blower and cam difference. There is literally nothing to change on a stock Gen-2 to help this issue... they run very little idle timing as it is, and fuel is closed loop near idle.

3. Yes, that is true, you can run no cats and still pass if you do exactly what I tell you to do [IE, non-fouler method] However, that is pass OBD-2 only. Sniffer you will fail, and any inspection person worth his salt will be able to tell you have no cats in less than 10 seconds. This is a totally subjective thing... Can definitely do it, but that would be this customers call depending on his relationship with the local techs and inspection stations.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 04:53 AM   #22
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It would be extremely unlikely that a state inspection station would 1) question your car, and 2) do anything about it. They are privately owned stations, usually quick lubes etc, and they make their money when you drive away. Not while accusing you of something and then moving your car from the regular inspection bay to the low speed dyno bay where the sniffer is. I'm sure there are some nazi inspectors somewhere tho. It is just not the norm here at all. It's not hard to find one where the guy is "cool," let alone the spanish version
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Old January 25th, 2017, 08:49 AM   #23
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Just for the record, if you offer the guy a ride, they'll pass you every time..
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Old January 25th, 2017, 09:07 AM   #24
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Just for the record, if you offer the guy a ride, they'll pass you every time..
So he sits on the 5-gal bucket?



Too soon?
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Old January 25th, 2017, 09:25 AM   #25
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Is he using SCT or flashing your PCM? Huge difference.



)
He sent me a canned tuned via email to load on the SCT. One of a few that can do it according to him. You can send the PCM as well but I figured keeping the stock tune saved on the SCT would be a good idea.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 09:40 AM   #26
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Dan Lesser needs to start sending Dan Cragin xmas cards so he'll spill the beans.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 09:54 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Final GTS View Post
LOL, well, I see I am getting tossed under the bus here lmao.

Clean Up, Aisle Five!

1. The Speedo Cal is part of the Hardware Config. SCT cannot access it, and I never bothered with our software to try and track it down either. Dan Cragin is probably one of, if not the, only guys out there with the original software and emulator to actually change certain hardware config items. The Viper platform is "aged" at this point, and it makes a bad business case to pump a ton of time into tracking down a few straggling items unfortunately, especially since it only applies to 1996-2002.

2. Low Speed Bucking is VERY normal on 708 cammed Gen-2's. The Creampuffs are not as bad, but in either case, the 1000-1500RPM range in low gears at steady-state is the culprit. A lot if going on in that range, between adaptive trimming and off-idle ignition changes, there are a lot of "surge triggers". Gears and Flywheels make it worse, cams make it worse. Blowers make it better, smaller cams make it better, heavier flywheels and stock gears make it better. Dave's situation is unique, and cannot be compared because of the blower and cam difference. There is literally nothing to change on a stock Gen-2 to help this issue... they run very little idle timing as it is, and fuel is closed loop near idle.
Is there typically a lean hole about 30 seconds after a cold start on Gen 2s? I have a very repeatable stumble/dead pedal that certainly exacerbates bucking. I'm guessing the event happens to line up with the closed loop switch point (yes, I know data would help. I need to order software).

Did the software on Gen2's have "quasi-closed loop" capability? i.e. Lock the LTM but allow the integrator to move during a calibrateable range between open loop and closed loop modes? Just curious. It seems like the lean hole is active for the amount of time and in the range of operation where the controller would be utilizing quasi-closed loop if it was available.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 10:17 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Viper Pilot View Post
Is there typically a lean hole about 30 seconds after a cold start on Gen 2s? I have a very repeatable stumble/dead pedal that certainly exacerbates bucking. I'm guessing the event happens to line up with the closed loop switch point (yes, I know data would help. I need to order software).

Did the software on Gen2's have "quasi-closed loop" capability? i.e. Lock the LTM but allow the integrator to move during a calibrateable range between open loop and closed loop modes? Just curious. It seems like the lean hole is active for the amount of time and in the range of operation where the controller would be utilizing quasi-closed loop if it was available.
There is a fuel table for warm up after the open loop segment. Or at least a factor for a closed loop fuel table at normal ECT. Dan could give you a more technical explanation. We worked through some bugs on my car with that area. Very fixable.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 10:40 AM   #29
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LOL, well, I see I am getting tossed under the bus here lmao.
Hope that wasn't intended for me. If so, I'll apologize now as that was not my intentions at all. I was very happy with our conversation and plans for the car. Was just answering the questions to the best I could recall from our conversation.

As it relates to the cats. I'm perfectly happy with staying with the High Flow option in the tune. My only purpose for removal of the cats would be to keep the heat down out of the side sills. Right now I'm not sure if that will even be necessary due to the heat shielding and cooling I've added there. I'll know here in a couple of months when the heat starts to turn back on outside. Car is in your hands and I trust what ever options you feel are best for my car.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 11:05 AM   #30
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^^^ did not throw Dan under the bus

<<--- threw Dan under the bus
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Old January 25th, 2017, 02:19 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Geronimo View Post
He sent me a canned tuned via email to load on the SCT. One of a few that can do it according to him. You can send the PCM as well but I figured keeping the stock tune saved on the SCT would be a good idea.
The SCT software produces the HEX file which cannot be later edited, so technically anyone with SCT software would have access to it, including us.

That said, this very well may be one of those items that is mislabeled or hidden, and they stumbled upon it by chance or had an idea where to look based on their previous work. We know about tons of them that others don't too. Hardware config items are generally not available, but this may be an exception buried somewhere. Dan does a lot more Gen-2 work than we do, and I rarely sell gear sets... so I have never really spent any large amount of time looking honestly.

Looks like I need to go through all the software and start fiddling around until I find it, it may be in a non-standard format that makes it appear to be something else.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 02:23 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Viper Pilot View Post
Is there typically a lean hole about 30 seconds after a cold start on Gen 2s? I have a very repeatable stumble/dead pedal that certainly exacerbates bucking. I'm guessing the event happens to line up with the closed loop switch point (yes, I know data would help. I need to order software).

Did the software on Gen2's have "quasi-closed loop" capability? i.e. Lock the LTM but allow the integrator to move during a calibrateable range between open loop and closed loop modes? Just curious. It seems like the lean hole is active for the amount of time and in the range of operation where the controller would be utilizing quasi-closed loop if it was available.
You are likely have too little warm-up fuel in a particular range, or a closed loop timer expiring too soon. We edit these all the time.

-Start
-Open Loop Warmup
-Closed Loop Timer Expiration
-Closed Loop Entry + Warmup Fuel Adder
-Warmup Fuel Expiration
-Closed Loop Short Term Only
-Closed Loop Long Term Activated over ~180F
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Old January 25th, 2017, 02:31 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by 85vett View Post
Hope that wasn't intended for me. If so, I'll apologize now as that was not my intentions at all. I was very happy with our conversation and plans for the car. Was just answering the questions to the best I could recall from our conversation.

As it relates to the cats. I'm perfectly happy with staying with the High Flow option in the tune. My only purpose for removal of the cats would be to keep the heat down out of the side sills. Right now I'm not sure if that will even be necessary due to the heat shielding and cooling I've added there. I'll know here in a couple of months when the heat starts to turn back on outside. Car is in your hands and I trust what ever options you feel are best for my car.
Haha, no worries, I was talking about Dave, not you... and he knows it, the prick. LOL

Just FYI, as you did ask about Gears, if I am able to locate the Gear Ratio, I will of course update your file and email you a new one if you want, that's no big deal. If its in there, it shouldn't take me long to find... just a weather headache up here now.

Unless.......... HEY DAVE! How do you feel about running test files with different gear ratios until I can locate the right value!?!?! LMAO
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Old January 25th, 2017, 03:03 PM   #34
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I'm in. I mean you did hook me up with someone's sister...
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Old January 25th, 2017, 03:43 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Final GTS View Post
You are likely have too little warm-up fuel in a particular range, or a closed loop timer expiring too soon. We edit these all the time.

-Start
-Open Loop Warmup
-Closed Loop Timer Expiration
-Closed Loop Entry + Warmup Fuel Adder
-Warmup Fuel Expiration
-Closed Loop Short Term Only
-Closed Loop Long Term Activated over ~180F
Great, thanks for the info. It's hard to guess what capability a manufacturer had in the time period that the Gen2s were around. It was that weird transition period where software was evolving from the really simplistic control strategies of the first generation of EFI to what we would now consider modern methods.
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Old January 25th, 2017, 03:49 PM   #36
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I'm in. I mean you did hook me up with someone's sister...
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Old January 25th, 2017, 05:21 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Final GTS View Post
Haha, no worries, I was talking about Dave, not you... and he knows it, the prick. LOL

Just FYI, as you did ask about Gears, if I am able to locate the Gear Ratio, I will of course update your file and email you a new one if you want, that's no big deal. If its in there, it shouldn't take me long to find... just a weather headache up here now.

Unless.......... HEY DAVE! How do you feel about running test files with different gear ratios until I can locate the right value!?!?! LMAO
Mine was actually for the wheel change. I do plan on doing gears at some point though. I can't imagine I'm off to much now (went with the Gen V sizes) but it would been nice to have a correct speed reading.
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