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Old October 19th, 2016, 09:13 AM   #21
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I totally had the same issue once. The little pin that comes out of the cam into the cam gear broke off. to the gear spun but the cam didnt. I went to a cam that requires 3 bolts now! LOL

Same situation as you...pulled car out to wash it. couldnt restart it. I was like how the F??!
That makes me feel a little better! However, I probably have some bent valves now. I guess that means that I was really meant to pull the heads off in the first place for freshening up. Tough way to learn a lesson though...
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Old October 19th, 2016, 09:33 AM   #22
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Old October 19th, 2016, 09:59 AM   #23
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This has happened to me on a 6.1 based Hemi. Twice. Both times I sheared the cam pin, and both times the cam bolt was appropriately torqued with red loctite. After that I used green loctite, drilled for a second pin, and then a few thousand miles later I spun 3 of 5 cam bearings and toasted the block.

My takeaway from that experience is to make sure the cam spins freely and the journal clearances are correct. And if you're running a motor with cam bearings (which a viper does not), to buy the aftermarket bearings that have a channel 360* down the middle of the outer face of the bearing so if they slightly spin you still get oil to the journal.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 12:00 PM   #24
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I was in a local shop here in Tampa and they were machining a block for roller bearings on the cam journals. Seems to me the Viper block would be a good candidate for something like that on the cam journals...overbore the cam journals, install races, fit/install the roller bearings on cam, and so forth. I imagine there is some more machining on the cam journals that might be required; I'm not personally experienced in doing something like this (at this time in life).
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Old October 19th, 2016, 12:25 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by EllowViper View Post
I was in a local shop here in Tampa and they were machining a block for roller bearings on the cam journals.
Roller bearings? I would think needle bearings would be more appropriate to spread the radial load applied by the valve springs. They would also allow for a smaller overall outer diameter.

EDIT: I'm high... My brain replaced "roller" with "ball"

Last edited by ishootstuff; October 19th, 2016 at 12:32 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 12:48 PM   #26
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Correct...actually roller needle bearings in the usual thin cage like you see in other application...like two-stroke snowmobile engines. The shop told me they do quite a few...not so much for street engines builds though. I wonder how the longevity is on these set-ups. Might have to do some reading just for giggles.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 12:51 PM   #27
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I'm high
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Old October 19th, 2016, 12:59 PM   #28
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Old October 19th, 2016, 01:11 PM   #29
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Old October 19th, 2016, 01:18 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EllowViper View Post
Correct...actually roller needle bearings in the usual thin cage like you see in other application...like two-stroke snowmobile engines. The shop told me they do quite a few...not so much for street engines builds though. I wonder how the longevity is on these set-ups. Might have to do some reading just for giggles.
We regularly see 12,000 miles on the big end rod bearings at 7500-8500 rpm 80% of the time in our trail sleds. The caged roller bearings will last just fine on a camshaft running at 3200 some of the time.
I'm not sure it would be worth the expense vs the gain though.

Last edited by Ramtuff; October 19th, 2016 at 01:26 PM. Reason: Said crank when I meant rod bearings
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Old October 19th, 2016, 01:29 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by EllowViper View Post
I was in a local shop here in Tampa and they were machining a block for roller bearings on the cam journals.
What shop?
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Old October 19th, 2016, 01:52 PM   #32
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The Engine Lab....they did my OEM heads not too long ago as well machining/fitting my 'crank' during the rebuild. Interesting shop. I'd like to be able to do some moon-lighting there....for access to their machine shop.
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Old October 19th, 2016, 04:26 PM   #33
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I was guessing it was The Engine Lab. I've been wondering where I would go since the great Joe Abene retired. This guy knew his shit.

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Old October 19th, 2016, 07:40 PM   #34
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There are a couple main issues with Rollers in Viper Blocks;

1. On many generations and in certain journals, there is limited real estate around the sides of the cam journals. When you hog them out for rollers, there just isn't a ton of material left to keep the strength up.

2. Since the Viper is a closed cam tunnel, it means that you either need to stagger bearing OD which is highly difficult as you have a hell of a time adjusting/measuring the tooling in the tunnel, or you are pressing bearings through multiple journals to reach the centers. In general the rollers just don't have that many available marginally different OD sizes, and the end result is that you get into more custom work to stagger in most cases. Staggering is extremely laborious, and if you choose not to its not the best situation for the outer journals.

Don't get me wrong, it *can* be done, but the benefits vs. cost are just low overall. The Viper does not run high enough RPM and Spring Pressures in most cases to even justify looking in this direction. The real main advantage of Roller is that you don't have to worry about scuffing the journals with crazy high spring pressures on a cold start. However, no matter how you slice it, once running there is nothing wrong with a hydrodynamic type oiled bearing surface. Moral of story, if you aren't running enough spring to destroy your cam journals, its basically a "feel good" upgrade.
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Last edited by Final GTS; October 19th, 2016 at 11:20 PM.
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Old October 20th, 2016, 06:46 AM   #35
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Agreed...and basically what a few of the tech journal's I read on the subject stated as well. So what about standard babbit cam bearings? Machining has the same constraints by and large, but bearing selection might be more readily available? Just throwing it out there for discussions. Also, I was intrigued by some related discussions of lifter bore and lifter diameters with most agreeing that machining for a .904 roller lifter with its corresponding larger roller is pretty much a must for these big lift cams running roller bearings. Good to see the Viper at least has those .904 lifters...not an issue for us.
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Old October 20th, 2016, 12:17 PM   #36
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I ran across this the other day. It's a very interesting read.

:::MoparMax::: Saving the Snake: Viper V-10 Cam Bearing Repair - 2/1/2012

They use 5 #2 cam bearings from an old AMC engine.
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Old October 20th, 2016, 01:10 PM   #37
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Very informative...and with PICTURES!! It is interesting to see the installed bearings in the block...and to see how narrow the AMC bearings are as compared to how much journal space is used by the cam on a stock block. I can't recall how wide the actual cam journal is...but I think its wider than the AMC babbit bearing. I would expect the babbit insert to be the same width as the cam journal. But I don't have a cam laying around to check...
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Old October 20th, 2016, 01:31 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EllowViper View Post
Very informative...and with PICTURES!! It is interesting to see the installed bearings in the block...and to see how narrow the AMC bearings are as compared to how much journal space is used by the cam on a stock block. I can't recall how wide the actual cam journal is...but I think its wider than the AMC babbit bearing. I would expect the babbit insert to be the same width as the cam journal. But I don't have a cam laying around to check...
Actually, this is one thing you may notice when dealing with many Viper engines. The newer engines and aftermarket camshafts use damn near the entire bearing surface. The older engines use only part of the journal. This is one big plus of aftermarket components, and especially the Gen-4+ cams/blocks. They have a hell of a lot of surface area compared to OE.
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Old March 26th, 2017, 12:52 PM   #39
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This is one of those situations where I was hoping I was wrong. I actually alluded to this being the problem in the first e-mail when I was saying "I had an idea, but didn't want to say anything without more info" as this was basically a worst case scenario.

In any event, I hope you keep us updated on what you find. This is not the first time I have seen this... this would be the third time.
Here's my update -

After vowing not to touch the Blue Bastard for the rest of 2016, I started peeling parts off the car Friday evening. The only thing that made it slightly less aggravating was the fact that everything was nice and clean from having detailed it all during the previous rebuild.

The cam drive pin (at 7 o'clock) was sheared off clean behind the sprocket. The bolt was stretched beyond its yield point, but had not completely sheared, which kept the sprocket from destroying the invaluable OEM cam sensor. You can see the high/low synch signal generator on the sprocket that will destroy the sensor if it's set too deep. The last photo shows the sensor - unmolested and still in its OEM location after almost 21 years.

Now, here's the question - since the cam has not been rotating while the crank did, are any of the stock valves likely to have been tagged by the pistons as they sat opened? I plan to pull the heads anyway to check them for wear and replace the valve seals before putting everything back together.
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Old March 26th, 2017, 01:47 PM   #40
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One case was loose timing gear bolt and sheared dowel pin, the other was a seized camshaft that resulted in the same.
Back in 1994 Steven Juliano (serious Mopar Collector) bought a new 94 RT/10 and had it deliver to his house (the intent was to keep the mileage down).

He pulled out of his driveway and drove down the street and the car died (showing 9 miles on the odometer).

It was hauled to the dealer where the diagnosed it as the timing chain had failed.

Chrysler wanted to fix it, they ended up buying the car back.

Steven didn't want a Viper with a blemish on it's service history almost from day one.
At that point no one knew how long Vipers would be produced.
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