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ZZ's '97 GTS- Single Turbo Build

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Old August 15th, 2016, 03:51 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by wje4 View Post
Really? By my recollection the factory mounting brackets have the face of the core less than an inch away (unused core space) This is why the updated fans have the shroud pulled back to get additional airflow completely across the core.

The 17.5" 99+ updated fan with the rubber flaps pulls closer to 4,000 cfm iirc.

I'd get as much fan on that thing as you can, and a bigger radiator.
Where did you get the 4000 CFM number? I have a hard time believing a single 17" fan is pulling 4000 CFM.
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Old August 15th, 2016, 04:08 PM   #162
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Also, one other thing to remember here, this car will be exclusively ran on E85. Engines typically run about 15-20 degrees cooler on E85 compared to 93.
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Old August 15th, 2016, 04:13 PM   #163
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Where did you get the 4000 CFM number? I have a hard time believing a single 17" fan is pulling 4000 CFM.
2,370 CFM at high speed and 2,020 CFM at low speed per the online sources I've been able to find-

Mopar Performance P5007266 | Buy Mopar Performance 2-Speed Electric Fan Assembly at JEGS

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-5007266
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Old August 15th, 2016, 05:15 PM   #164
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Thanks Paolo. I guess we'll see. I've never heard an official number, but I've heard the later upgraded Gen 2 fan flows 2300. No idea about the first iteration shroud which is what I still had in my car. My total airflow should be close to 2000 CFM at idle with the two fans combined. I'm assuming that will be somewhat close to what my current shroud is flowing. I'll also be wiring the fans to be controlled by the MS3, so I will have the fans running at full speed, from the time of stat crack temperature, at 170 degrees.

At least in the cooling OEM world, how many fans have been bolted directly to the face of a radiator core, or any cooling component? I've never designed one that way, or seen anyone design it that way and it's for good reason. If I put a 16" high flow fan on the radiator, it will cover about 200 sq inches. That's about 1/3rd of the total area of the radiator core , meaning at idle, when there is no ram air, the other 2/3rds of the core is relying on natural convection alone to cool. Not ideal.

The whole cooling package is a system, and there are a lot of variables to take into account. Fan to core spacing, upstream restriction, etc. I do agree there may be a concern of the fans being a restriction at highway speeds. Before installing the shroud, I may cutout some flaps like the OEM shroud to allow them to open under speed.
Zach and WJE, you have to remember the flow #'s are quoted @ zero static pressure. With the Oil cooler, AC condensor radiator core, fan shroud and fan blades, conservative estimates of restriction would be closer to greater than 1" static pressure. If you look up the flow #'s on Spal's website for the fan specs. any given fan flows maybe 20% @ 1" static pressure as compared to zero static pressure(from what I remember,it's been a few years since I looked at that stuff). The most important part of engine cooling is the flow through the radiator when the car is moving. Maybe at a stop, you think the fans will pull the same as the stocker, I think it will be at a severe deficit. The real problem is your shroud restricting the cruising airflow through the radiator core. That is a killer IMO.

Here is a picture of what I was trying to describe in an earlier post. In this picture, I have mounted the fans with some foam to seal the circumference of the fan cage to the radiator. You have the best of both worlds in this scenario where at speed there is practically no restriction to the airflow through the radiator core, yet when the fans kick on, this setup is pulling from a relatively large percentage of the radiator core's surface area. With the space limitation you have with the radiator in the stock location and dimensions, my way would give you the best of everything.

Real world experience-wise. This radiator setup allowed the car with more than double the original factory output with front mounted twin turbos and a bit more radiant heat in the engine compartment since none of it was coated for the initial install allowed the car to run 20-30 degrees cooler than it ran stock with stock power in Houston Tx. Originally the car ran 220+ a lot on the factory gauge once the TT system was on the car, it was very easy to keep it 190-195 degrees. This is not theory, it is real world experience with observed results.

Just because the car is running on E-85 and you may have a cooler running engine, does not mean you should severely inhibit by quite a bit the amount of airflow through the core when the car is moving and possibly at best the aftermarket fans could pull 2200 CFM @ zero static pressure. I remember the stock 16" fan being rumored to pull 3000 CFM(@ zero static pressure I am assuming). Like we have already agreed, you have to try what you've got. If it is not enough, I am just posting what worked very well for one of my builds.




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Also, one other thing to remember here, this car will be exclusively ran on E85. Engines typically run about 15-20 degrees cooler on E85 compared to 93.
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Old August 15th, 2016, 05:20 PM   #165
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Is this car air-air or liquid to air IC?
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Old August 15th, 2016, 05:58 PM   #166
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Is this car air-air or liquid to air IC?
Liquid to air. I have a large trunk mounted reservoir.

I guess the good news with the cooling system is that I can always pull the shroud I designed off and put a couple highflow deeper fans directly to the core face if this doesn't work out.

I have a few more things I need to put together before I put everything back in. I'll 3D print some flappers and rivet them onto the face so they will open under ram air conditions.
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Old August 15th, 2016, 07:56 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by ZZ SRT View Post
Liquid to air. I have a large trunk mounted reservoir.

I guess the good news with the cooling system is that I can always pull the shroud I designed off and put a couple highflow deeper fans directly to the core face if this doesn't work out.

I have a few more things I need to put together before I put everything back in. I'll 3D print some flappers and rivet them onto the face so they will open under ram air conditions.
You could also buy rubber flap material from McMaster in the width you need and just cut the length and rivet that to the shroud.

Flexibility for sealing with rubber will minimize the precision necessary for a 3D printed piece and hole in the shroud interface unless you are making an entire hinge piece and bolting on the frame and hinge?
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Old August 15th, 2016, 08:19 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Paolo Castellano View Post
You could also buy rubber flap material from McMaster in the width you need and just cut the length and rivet that to the shroud.

Flexibility for sealing with rubber will minimize the precision necessary for a 3D printed piece and hole in the shroud interface unless you are making an entire hinge piece and bolting on the frame and hinge?
Yeah, I was going to make them hinge just like the stockers on my '97 fan. Would be pretty easy to design and print. Probably not necessary, but it would add a cool feature.
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Old August 18th, 2016, 07:31 PM   #169
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I run e85 on my TT and it doesn't run that much cooler. Remember, it won't run any cooler than the thermostat no matter the cooling upgrades. I suggest wrapping any exhaust pipes and shielding everything you can. Reduce as much radiant heat u can.

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Old August 19th, 2016, 12:12 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Drlee50 View Post
I run e85 on my TT and it doesn't run that much cooler. Remember, it won't run any cooler than the thermostat no matter the cooling upgrades. I suggest wrapping any exhaust pipes and shielding everything you can. Reduce as much radiant heat u can.

Sent from my LG-H901 using Tapatalk
I've spent so much money on different thermal materials it's ridiculous.

DEI titanium wrap on the full hotside, turbo blanket, gold foil galore, lines wrapped in thermal wrap. Basically the whole engine bay will be fire proof lol.

I'm in process of updating the shroud with some flappers.

Designed in CAD:



Printed 4 sets:





Assembled:





Test fit to see where I should add them. These are 7"x2" for the actual flapper door.





Traced and ready to cut out the aluminum. Have to drill out all the rivets and remove the fans I hate going backwards on projects but I want to give this shroud the best chance of working.
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Old August 19th, 2016, 11:18 PM   #171
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Very good build info.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 11:38 AM   #172
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Finishing the Fan Shroud

I finished up all the cutouts needed for the flappers to be added. When finished, I had scratched up the original paint pretty badly from the jig saw so I repainted the whole shroud in wrinkle black to better match my other underhood components.



With the shroud repainted, I could fully re-assemble with my new flapper doors. To attach everything I used 1/4" aluminum rivets.



With the shroud complete, I could re-install the radiator and shroud for the final time. I had the radiator pressure tested at a local shop to ensure there were no leaks before moving forward.





Heat Protection

Next up on the list is to protect against heat in some of the critical areas where I have concerns. The first is the power steering reservoir. Even with re-designing the bracket, and moving over the entire pump, it still only has about 1" of clerarance to the hotside piping. In order to help this as much as possible, I decided to apply some DEI reflect-a-gold to reject some heat.



Reservoir removed and cleaned.



Reflect-a-gold applied:



Installed:



My other area of concern is the coolant surge tank. I plan to make an entire new tank out of aluminum. I already have the material and design, I just need some time. For now, to get on the road I am just using the stock tank to see how it does.

The bad news is, I accidentally left the tank sit under the lift and lowered the car on top of it. It's somewhat crushed but I'm still going to use it since I'll be replacing it later.

to pretty it up, I painted it with wrinkle black to match everything else, and then applied reflect-a-gold to the portion nearest the log manifold.





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Old August 24th, 2016, 11:48 AM   #173
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Looking good! Keep the pics coming
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Old August 29th, 2016, 11:48 AM   #174
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I bought some foam to seal the perimeter of the fan shroud. I had a small gap all around before the foam so I was worried about it sealing.



Still working on tying up a bunch of loose ends to re-install everything for the final time. Lots of small details to figure out.

I moved the power steering pump location, so my belt length changed. I was able to find a belt that was 80" from Dayco instead of the standard 81", which was now too long to create tension.

I had a buddy powdercoat my compressor housing gold for me, to match the theme of my car with the Gold Edition and the gold brake calipers. Should look good when in the car.





I also got my log headers wrapped in the DEI titanium wrap. I used the 1" wide and this was a huge pain as I had to tuck the entire length of wrap through the holes for each time around the piping.



Next, in order to be able to route the -12 turbo drain directly to the pan, I needed to create a hole in the power steering bracket because there is no other pathway really. The hole had to be quite large to fit the -12 Drain fitting through.



In order to support this area that I weakened with the hole, I bought a large L-channel and made two overlapping brackets for re-inforcement. The hole in the re-inforcement is smaller, and should be at least as strong as the original bracket before cutting the hole.



In order to keep the -12 braided line from snagging and rubbing on the steel channel, I designed a 3d printed a cover that I could wrap around the braided hose.



This is zip tied around the hose on the portion that goes through the bracketry. With the brackets bolted down, the hose cover cannot go forward or backward with the lip I designed into it.

Here's everything installed. I'm pretty happy with how direct I have the routing for the drain. It should flow really well with plenty of fall.



Lastly, I got the painted/heat wrapped surge tank re-installed. I have covered the hose in thermal wrap as well where it will be near the exhaust manifold.





Next step is to finish up the power steering cooler setup before I can re-install the turbo. I was planning to re-use the high pressure line, but with the new PS pump location, the line is now too short to use so I will have to hard-pipe it with stainless -6 tubing and AN fittings.
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Old August 29th, 2016, 10:13 PM   #175
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Looking great, Zach!
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Old September 6th, 2016, 10:42 AM   #176
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Made some good progress over the long weekend. I was able to spend the majority of my Labor Day on the viper!

Finished up the power steering lines. I used bump fitting to AN adapters and then ran a -6 AN line for the pressure side of the pump to power steering. I then wrapped the lines in thermal wrap since they are right below the exhaust.





Wrapped my exhaust pipe (the first section) in DEI titanium wrap.



Next, time to install the completed hotside and exhaust now that everything is painted and wrapped.









Here you can see the V-band flange for the exhaust. I will make one more run to exit through the driver's side rocker panel. I 3D printed a piece to sit in the opening so while I am mocking up the exhaust, I can use this to keep it centered.





Lastly, I fabbed up the coldside piping from the turbo all the way to the intercooler. I still need to fabricate the charge pipe but I'm waiting on a couple silicone couplers to come in the mail.





Lastly, just for fun, I decided to throw the turbo blanket on to see how it will look.





Did a bunch more this weekend not shown, like put the hood back on to make 100% sure I have no interference issues! Good to go, fit with over an inch to spare.

the other big thing I figured out this weekend is that my 12" fan was only about 1/2" from the exhaust housing on the turbo. It was creating a large downstream restriction, wouldn't allow my turbo blanket to fit, and I'm pretty sure the fan guard will literally melt with it being so close. Because of that I pulled the entire shroud off, and will be mounting the fans directly to the core as a couple people on here suggested. I wasted a ton of time making that stupid shroud, but oh well. Wasted time is expected on these projects when you are exploring the unknown.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 12:02 PM   #177
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This build is simply amazing!

Great work Zach.

I need to talk to you about possibly 3-D printing some projects for me once you are done with your Viper and have some spare time lol.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 12:20 PM   #178
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Old September 6th, 2016, 01:07 PM   #179
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Nice progress Zach. One thing I would keep a close eye on once you're up and running is the area on the hood closest to the hotside comes within an inch of it. Even with the wrap, a few hard pulls can generate some serious heat especially in a single setup where both banks are dumping full bore into a single hotside.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 02:22 PM   #180
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Nice progress Zach. One thing I would keep a close eye on once you're up and running is the area on the hood closest to the hotside comes within an inch of it. Even with the wrap, a few hard pulls can generate some serious heat especially in a single setup where both banks are dumping full bore into a single hotside.
Thanks! I'll be sure to keep an eye on it. It's actually the top hat of the wastegate that comes within an inch. The actual hotside is a little bit further away I think.

I do have a really nice heat shield that I purchased that I haven't used yet. Maybe I should fasten that to the underside of the hood where contact is closest!
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