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Old November 23rd, 2011, 10:45 PM   #61
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It is the often overlooked part of doing a build, along with REAL engine managment and the electrical system as a whole. Buying boost, wheels, suspension, all that stuff is fun because it either adds directly to the task of gong faster, looking good or getting attention. But when it is time to justify for little things like injectors (don't they all just squirt fuel), ECU, fuel pumps, wiring, etc the wallet is getting tighter and often the choice simply comes down to "well that one is cheaper".

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Old November 24th, 2011, 01:23 AM   #62
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Kinda on topic, kinda off topic;

Anyone who may have some personal experience: How does the ID2000 compare to the Moran 160 or 235 Billet? Mainly, from the standpoint of idle quality on Gasoline. I have had very good luck with the ID1000 on Gasoline, but I have a build penciled in that required Pump/Race/E85 capability. I am obviously going to need considerably more injector, but I would prefer idle on gas not go in the toilet as a result.
I'm curious to this too, I personally bought the Moran 235's because of the precision at high flow. I'm having a cell built for the rear hatch area to hold roughly 50% more fuel to allow for capacity and the added weight isn't going to hurt. It would be a slick setup of you ran the mechanical fuel pump somewhere along with the dry sump pump...

You could then use your electric to start the car and then the mechanical would cover the rest?
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Old November 24th, 2011, 03:11 AM   #63
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i think it adds to the discussion on e85. I don't know jack about mechanical fuel pumps. What is entailed to go that route, what are the cons you've outlined the pros!
Seb pretty much covered it. You might be able to mount one on the back of your dry sump pump (if it has provision, which most do and if you have room). That takes the most difficult aspect of running one (mounting, driving) out of the question.

Priming can sometimes be an issue (especially a street car, where tolerance for longer cranking is sometimes low), but I have found as long as the fuel lines aren't empty then they usually crank up just fine with no priming pump required.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 03:26 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Final GTS View Post
Kinda on topic, kinda off topic;

Anyone who may have some personal experience: How does the ID2000 compare to the Moran 160 or 235 Billet? Mainly, from the standpoint of idle quality on Gasoline. I have had very good luck with the ID1000 on Gasoline, but I have a build penciled in that required Pump/Race/E85 capability. I am obviously going to need considerably more injector, but I would prefer idle on gas not go in the toilet as a result.
I have not used the Moran injectors, so i can't offer a direct comparison. I am setting up a Viper right now with the ID2000, and chose them as my requirements are the same as yours. I need the flow rate, and do not want to sacrifice idle/driveability.

The Injector Dynamics stuff has always been top notch in terms of performance (linearity, flow injector to injector in a given set, etc) but the one thing that really sets them apart from the rest for me is the data they provide to help me do my job better. I have not seen any other injector company provide the data they do. NO injector is perfectly linear, but with the data they provide you can account for this (assuming your ECU allows you to) and that means your tune (especially in the low pulse regions such as idle/light throttle) will be that much better/more stable.

Just imagine an OEM engineering team trying to do the calibration for a new model car/engine and their injector data is simply: 100lb/hr @ 43.5psi.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 09:45 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Final GTS View Post
Kinda on topic, kinda off topic;

Anyone who may have some personal experience: How does the ID2000 compare to the Moran 160 or 235 Billet? Mainly, from the standpoint of idle quality on Gasoline. I have had very good luck with the ID1000 on Gasoline, but I have a build penciled in that required Pump/Race/E85 capability. I am obviously going to need considerably more injector, but I would prefer idle on gas not go in the toilet as a result.
To give you an idea of how well the id2000 work. This is a 70 cubic inch engine with 4 id2000's I tuned with motec on c16. The value on the dash is in lambda not air fuel
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Old November 24th, 2011, 09:59 AM   #66
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on these big mechanical pumps, what about overheating the fuel and subsequently the pump on the street?
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Old November 24th, 2011, 10:21 AM   #67
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There is no electric motor to conduct heat but depending on where the pump is mounted in could get radiant heat from something else. More important is the ability of the fuel pressure regulator to be able to bypass enough fuel back to the tank when stepping up to the mechanical fuel pump.



We run them on some of the bikes on methanol . Cranking rpm the pump doesnt really output alot of pressure so you just have to compensate by increasing PW. Once it lights its all good. There are cable driven pumps so you can mount the fuel pump in the rear of the car by the tank to minimize the chance of pump not priming. Most of the race cars now run a pump in the rear and tank in the rear to prevent big problems in case of impact or other issues.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 12:36 PM   #68
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Here is some of the data from Injector Dynamics, that helps me do my job better as a tuner (and makes for a happier customer).

While the ID2000 are an amazing injector, keep in mind that NO injector is perfectly linear, it is just the nature of all things mechanical. In fact most will be worse than the ID2000 (perhaps none worse than the Bosch 1600cc at low pulse), and yet nobody that I have seen besides Injector Dynamics provides this level of data to the consumer! We are lucky to have battery offset data for most injectors and usually that didn't come from the injector supplier but from outside sources doing the testing. Some are starting to raise their game (because they have to now), but from what I have seen it is still not enough.

Note the red circle, this is the low pulse area of the injector (where you will find yourself in the very crucial operating areas of idle and light throttle). This is where injectors are non-linear, and with the right ECU (MoTeC I think is the only one at the moment) we can fully account for this given the data from Injector Dynamics!



Here is another look at the low pulse area where the injectors go non-linear. These are big injectors guys, imagine how tricky it would be to tune your idle AFR without this level of data! And I can't say it enough. ALL INJECTORS DO THIS, AND MOST ARE FAR WORSE THAN THIS. Anyone who has ever tried to get a stable AFR from a set of Bosch 1600cc at low pulse knows exactly what I am talking about. You usually do well to "herd" it into a 2-3 AFR point range and call it good.



Giving credit where it is due, I can't say enough of a thank you to Paul Yaw at Injector Dynamics. He is the one that came up with all this, that questioned the status quo in terms of what injector companies supply to the consumer, and who never stops teaching those who are willing to learn about this stuff.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 03:20 PM   #69
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Here is some of the data from Injector Dynamics, that helps me do my job better as a tuner (and makes for a happier customer).

I also have to completely agree with John on this. While I have no experience with the ID2000, the ID1000 is hands down the best injector and easiest to work with of its size that I have ever used. The additional information they supply goes a long way towards taking the guessing and trial/error out of setup.

On that same note, I would also say that there are a lot of imitators out there. Just because they LOOK like ID1000's doesn't mean they are! There is a huge difference in machining and modification quality between the injector re-manufacturers. Trust your eyes- if it looks like shoddy work, it more than likely is!
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Old November 24th, 2011, 03:51 PM   #70
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This is why I chose Moran injectors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38dAGr1ZSUQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Old November 24th, 2011, 04:19 PM   #71
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That's a good comparison, but like most, tends to be a tad skewed. Sure the Moran injector has a good spray pattern, but that "competition" is surely not a top-end competitor... and is certainly not an ID injector. In another Moran test, there WAS an ID injector in the comparison, and it was just as good of a spray pattern.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 04:39 PM   #72
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I agree but the Moran injectors were less expensive and mike has phenomenal support. I'm not knocking id's I'm just showing an equally impressive injector...
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Old November 24th, 2011, 06:49 PM   #73
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Mike is top notch and so are his injectors. His flow bench is sick! You can use any fuel with his injectors as well which you cannot with ID2000. Both great injectors...leave it at that.

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Old November 24th, 2011, 09:33 PM   #74
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I agree but the Moran injectors were less expensive and mike has phenomenal support. I'm not knocking id's I'm just showing an equally impressive injector...
I hear you, I am just pointing out that the comparison you showed is not an ID comparison. Considering the posts above yours and the conversation direction, someone could easily assume the other injector in that test was an ID, when its not. I have zero against Moran, I am sure they are extremely comparable.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 10:10 PM   #75
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It's all good, I didn't intend it to come off like that.

I'm going to look into the mechanical pump to feed these beasts.
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Old November 25th, 2011, 10:20 AM   #76
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It's all good, I didn't intend it to come off like that.

I'm going to look into the mechanical pump to feed these beasts.
What kind of flow data/information come with them (or can you get from Moran)? I am just curious, it is tempting to grab some to try out and see how they tune compared to the ID2000. I love testing new stuff!
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Old November 29th, 2011, 06:49 PM   #77
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You will be very happy with E85, in fact it is the only thing I would run given the choice. The only downside (especially on a Viper) is the extra fuel volume needed.

I am setting up an Underground TT car now with 3 Aeromotive "Stealth" Pumps, ID2000cc injectors, full flex fuel setup (auto adjust for any mix of gasoline/ethanol in the tank), traction control, individual cylinder knock control, etc. Should be a true "street" setup with near 1500whp on $3/gallon fuel. I should have it on the dyno this next week actually.

As far as tuning the E85, it tunes like, well, E85. That is just a way of saying don't jump in thinking welll xxx says it is better than C16 so lets throw yyy at the thing and pull the trigger. It is a highly capable fuel (I feel better than C16) but needs to be tuned according to its own characteristics on your vehicle. I find it rarely takes as much timing as C16, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

New ECU with a E85 tune and some TC??
Sounds a lot like what I'm wanting to do.
So how did it come out? Was this Mike's car?
I'd be curious how much rwhp the 3 Aeromotive "stealth" pumps supported on E85.

Or is it all a super secret?
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Old November 30th, 2011, 11:47 AM   #78
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Sounds a lot like what I'm wanting to do.
So how did it come out? Was this Mike's car?
I'd be curious how much rwhp the 3 Aeromotive "stealth" pumps supported on E85.

Or is it all a super secret?
No secrets, but the E85 car described above isn't Mike's. I am doing another one at my shop at the same time. It is almost ready for the dyno but leaving for PRI tonight so that will likely happen next week. I will make a thread on the car with pics/videos/dyno graphs when it is all done.

I haven't used the Stealth pumps on a Viper yet, but just did a couple Supras with them and found that a pair of them supported right at 1050whp on E85, and we never maxed out three pumps on the same car (ended up making 1200ish whp at 40psi boost). So from that I have been calculating roughly 500whp/per pump on E85, though on a Viper they could do a bit more since the fuel rail pressure will be lower (due to lower boost levels).
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Old November 30th, 2011, 12:35 PM   #79
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No secrets, but the E85 car described above isn't Mike's. I am doing another one at my shop at the same time. It is almost ready for the dyno but leaving for PRI tonight so that will likely happen next week. I will make a thread on the car with pics/videos/dyno graphs when it is all done.

I haven't used the Stealth pumps on a Viper yet, but just did a couple Supras with them and found that a pair of them supported right at 1050whp on E85, and we never maxed out three pumps on the same car (ended up making 1200ish whp at 40psi boost). So from that I have been calculating roughly 500whp/per pump on E85, though on a Viper they could do a bit more since the fuel rail pressure will be lower (due to lower boost levels).
That's good to know about the Stealth pumps, since they're a direct replacement for the Walbro 255's right?
I'd really like to use E85 ILO C16. Based on your post, sounds like a more efficient way to make the same (if not more) power than with C16...for a lot less $$$/gallon.
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