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Old November 18th, 2011, 10:56 PM   #21
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^^ huh? I watched a viper flatline my 1500hp chassis dyno on e85. Then I watched it do it again, and again, and again.....
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Old November 18th, 2011, 11:09 PM   #22
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^^ huh? I watched a viper flatline my 1500hp chassis dyno on e85. Then I watched it do it again, and again, and again.....
I don't know the details of hollywoods setup but if it's maxed out at 1350 on 116, pretty safe to assume he isn't going to make 1600 on e85. I was simply stating 105 octane fuel makes less power than 116 on a specific engine. Tune accordingly
Could you build a purpose built engine with low compression etc to run on e85 to make more power? Sure. He wasn't asking that. He was saying if he converts his 116 tuned engine to e85, how do you do it properly and find the timing limits?
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Old November 18th, 2011, 11:26 PM   #23
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Right on I see what you're saying... I misunderstood your remark
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Old November 19th, 2011, 08:01 AM   #24
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Lots of good info. in here.
It seems I might be limited by my 3 Walbro pumps also.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 08:43 AM   #25
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What pumps are you using?
Weldon 2345A. Plenty of pump,but only a 120lb injector.I was at 80% at 1000rwhp. Getting ready to retune my new motor setup.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 10:42 AM   #26
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Lots of good info. in here.
It seems I might be limited by my 3 Walbro pumps also.
Swap them out for the Aeromotive stealth series. They are swap in upgrades for the walbro. 3 of them will support your HP and more on e85... And you can stage them in nicely if your EMS supports that.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 01:14 PM   #27
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Swap them out for the Aeromotive stealth series. They are swap in upgrades for the walbro. 3 of them will support your HP and more on e85... And you can stage them in nicely if your EMS supports that.
Interesting. Are they alcohol compatable?
What are your "guesses" of the power they will support, since I have plenty of injector?
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Old November 19th, 2011, 01:33 PM   #28
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I would say they are as compatible as your walbros are. Neither are technically rated for it but everyone uses them anyway.. I guess walbro is supposed to soon release an alcohol specific rated model of their new pumps.

Ive got all year with an aeromotive in e85 in my 370z, no problems yet. Just a single one at 550+ rwhp... So if your plumbing is adequate you will easily sustain your HP on 3 of them.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 01:56 PM   #29
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E85 is about 105 octane . Keeping that in mind, don't expect to make the same power with it as you do the 116. It will make good power for $4 fuel, but not the same as 116.

There is no magic timing limit as all combustion chambers are unique. And if you are running, say 15 lbs of boost, you can run X amount of timing. Go up to say, 20psi and you have to run a bit less to be safe . You have to read the plugs, all of them in a max effort engine. Tune to the leanest cylinder. All intakes are unique as are the runner shapes, etc. So you are going to have one cyl that's leaner than the rest. if you have individual cyl tuning available, then you have to do this for each cyl.

Do you know how to read the timing marks on the electrode strap of the plugs? Or how to read the porcelain for fuel richness? You should actually cut the plug threads off so you can see better. It's easy to miss tiny specs of metal on the porcelain that results from detonation not audible to your ear and perhaps to your knock sensor. Obviously these plug reads need to be done following a wot pull. If you can go wot and shut it down and coast to a stop, that's best. Test and tune days at the track are great. I'd shut my car down as soon as I cross the stripe and pull all the plugs and read em. I bought 160 spark plugs for a great discount online. And several head gaskets. I'd suggest you run a graphite hg instead of mls so you have a "fuse" that will pop before you kill a piston. Mls hg's seal great and hold boost well, but won't pop with detonation. Once you have your max tune, then put your mls gaskets back on. If you happen to pull the heads, have someone who knows what they are doing read your cyl walls . That's especially helpful if you have individual cyl tuning. How serious do you want to get with tuning your engine? How much power do you need? 1000 hp on 4$ fuel could be done safe and easy without requiring all the shit I listed above. It may be possible to wring out 11-1200 hp on e85, but it's going to require all the above tuning procedures to find out.
There is a lot more to a fuel than just octane. Time and time again I have seen C-16 make less power than E-85. Stuff's magic.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 02:06 PM   #30
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There is a lot more to a fuel than just octane. Time and time again I have seen C-16 make less power than E-85. Stuff's magic.
Yeah. The cooling properties and absense of detonation, seem to really be the ticket. I've also read where is helps turbos spool earlier in the rpms vs. C16.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 02:08 PM   #31
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Yeah. The cooling properties and absense of detonation, seem to really be the ticket. I've also read where is helps turbos spool earlier in the rpms vs. C16.
I think it may have some flame propagation benefits too. The faster the burn speed, the less timing needed, and therefore the more power. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need any timing.


Last edited by The Former PFR; November 19th, 2011 at 02:38 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 02:09 PM   #32
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It's nice having a good e85 pump about 1.5 minutes down the road. Do people who live where it's not available order drums of it like race gas? I wouldn't mind a drum since my station isn't 24 hours.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 02:34 PM   #33
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Lots of good info on here. I know SVS posted a bit on E85 when they were testing in that Stryker car they had but that was a few years ago. I see E85 making lots of progress in the next year or so as more is discovered on how to maximize all its properties in these cars through both physical and tuning mods.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 02:42 PM   #34
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From modular fords:

Gasoline contains 19,000 BTU of energy. To obtain the best power you need an air to fuel ratio of 12.5-12.7:1

Ethanol contains 12,500 BTU of energy. To obtain the best power you need an air to fuel ratio of 6.5-7.0:1 !!! thats why it consumes more gas... But that is also why it makes more power. Why? because of the ammount of gasoline you are burning.

12.6 air to fuel ratio divided by 6.7 air to fuel ratio is = 1.88

1.88 X 12,500 BTU lb = 23,500 BTU lb de Ethanol (vs 19,000 BTU of regular gasoline

That is why ethanol contains 23.68% more BTU OF ENERGY than regular gasoline

Obviously E85 is a little bit less but this is only to give you guys an idea


Seems to make sense.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 03:09 PM   #35
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Gasoline contains 19,000 BTU of energy. To obtain the best power you need an air to fuel ratio of 12.5-12.7:1

Ethanol contains 12,500 BTU of energy. To obtain the best power you need an air to fuel ratio of 6.5-7.0:1 !!!
This is why I read Lambda instead of air/fuel . No difference in the number regardless of fuel type.
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Old November 19th, 2011, 03:21 PM   #36
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This is why I read Lambda instead of air/fuel . No difference in the number regardless of fuel type.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 08:16 PM   #37
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E98 is not the same as e85 obviously. And the rotating mass of your little 4 banger is much different than his 10cyl. And your billet crank is a far nicer piece than his stocker I'm sure. Your 9500rpm motor with 45 psi of boost isn't much of an apples to apples comparison for power production from a certain fuel type.
at least know a little bit about the car... its on a stock crank (polished and balanced, no weight removed)... basic shit. rods, pistons, built head, goes out to ~9k. and its not 45 psi, more like 60 ;-D

you don't seem to understand ethanol at all... this car wouldnt have a hope in the world of getting to this power level on C16..
we have multiple 800awhp+ E-85 4cly out there... we usually run them on E98 for safety reasons. E-85 may have a octane rating of only 105, but good luck getting it to knock. you have to tune VERY aggressive to get it to start knocking. supras have been past the 1k hp on E-85 for a long time.... there are blown bigblock chevys over 2000hp...
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Old November 21st, 2011, 08:18 PM   #38
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Interesting. Are they alcohol compatable?
What are your "guesses" of the power they will support, since I have plenty of injector?
there are new walbros that are 400lph, lmk if you want a price :-D
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 02:53 PM   #39
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You will make as much if not more HP on E85 and a ton more torque than on C16. Remember that octane is not the only factor involved here. You are putting 30% more fuel into the cylinder. Running the cylinder richer suppresses knock a lot more than the octane rating!! Not to mention the fact that the cylinder temperatures are so much lower.

About 99% of the cars that we build are now on E85. There is nothing you can do on C16 that you cannot do on E85. E85 does everything in fact better. We get 400-500 rpm of better spool and MUCH more torque on all turbo cars. I have tuned supras to 1300 RWHP and twin turbo V8s to well over 1750 which is all that my dyno reads to. 40-50 psi of boost too. E85 truly is magic fuel for a turbo car and you will be surprised at how much timing it wants!!
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 03:24 PM   #40
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at least know a little bit about the car... its on a stock crank (polished and balanced, no weight removed)... basic shit. rods, pistons, built head, goes out to ~9k. and its not 45 psi, more like 60 ;-D

you don't seem to understand ethanol at all... this car wouldnt have a hope in the world of getting to this power level on C16..
we have multiple 800awhp+ E-85 4cly out there... we usually run them on E98 for safety reasons. E-85 may have a octane rating of only 105, but good luck getting it to knock. you have to tune VERY aggressive to get it to start knocking. supras have been past the 1k hp on E-85 for a long time.... there are blown bigblock chevys over 2000hp...
Prior to buying my viper, I just sold my 1200 hp mustang that I tuned on E85 - drove it 65 miles to the track, ran 8.90's/158mph easy and drove it home 65 more miles. I am not a stranger to the E85 fuel and tuning it at all. I didnt run an intercooler at all. I ran a meth injection kit and that was it. I know is burns very cold and the extra volume of fuel does aid in detonation suppression and slightly faster spool. (not much faster on my GT47-88mm turbo with a 1.23 A/R turbine housing) I only had 336ci and 28 psi. And I assure you, I have a few head gaskets I have blown due to some knock.

To the original poster.... couple things additional about tuning E85. It can be a bit of a bitch the read the plugs because they burn so damn clean! You can still see the timing and fuel marks, but you have to look much closer than with gasoline. And also, for a daily driver, when its really cold out... E85 doesn't like to start for shit. E98 is far worse for that as well. I live in Chicago so my "cold out" might be different than yours. There is a reason that they switch the blend to E70 in the winter.
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