Watched a special tonight re: forced induction on Speed channel.
Synopsis:
Lead engineer of Banks Engineering ( have known about them for years but the company hasn't ever been a 'household name' in speed and tuning for me anyway ).
In any case,
Bottom line: According to this gentleman, turbocharging is best without argument in his opinon.
I don't think anyone out there at this point would argue with this.
He went on to explain why and how.
Very informative.
Took it a step further with the fact that Turbocharging is limited by Octane levels in the Gasoline used. ( Learned something today ).
" Not the case with a diesel motor"..
Question / throwing out the topic for the tuners / guys in the know out there, is there a future in sports cars sporting Diesel powered turbocharged engines?
Any of you guys messing with this technology w Diesel motors?
According to Banks that is where it's going, doesn't have that 'scent' any longer if done correctly, and it's unlimited.
Very exciting to watch, Banks is a definite class act for sure, going back to his days with experiementing w the old Grand Nationals etc....
Just tossing out, what I consider to be an exciting topic which may be the future of performance.
Primary point being made is:
-Nitrous: ( racing only or your are rolling the dice )
-Supercharging: ( explains the differences of each ) next in line and much smarter / more effective in the long haul.
-Turbocharging: Zero question most effective / most productive way of making power.
No point, just throwing a topic out there, and I hope this guy has mods for Viper applications as not only does he strike me as highly intelligent, he seems like a good guy.
Cheers gentlemen,
Woody,
-Out
Last edited by woodyz viper : August 27th, 2007 at 11:28 PM.
Diesel race cars? bah, who would conjure up such a foolish idea.
Signed,
Audi
With the right setup it diesel can make a ton of power, the problem is they are generally fairly sluggish and extremely rpm limited compared to a gasoline or alch motor.
Diesel race cars? bah, who would conjure up such a foolish idea.
Signed,
Audi
With the right setup it diesel can make a ton of power, the problem is they are generally fairly sluggish and extremely rpm limited compared to a gasoline or alch motor.
Gale Banks is one of the pioneers in quality designed custom high performance turbocharging setups. He was making 1600hp rat motors for jet boats on gas back when that power was considered impressive in blown alcohol - the guy is one of the greats in his field and very highly regarded by both peers and the who's who' in his area.
He hosts an annual event at his facility and a lot of rich and famous attend.
diesel and high performance are part of the future, but gasolene has heaps left when new technologies emerge. Expect to see massive fuel pressures and direct injection coupled with variable compression and the perfection of ecu controlled valves in camless engines.
The OEM's are playing the old dirty technology for as much as they can, but when they cannot milk it anymore - the ICE will not be dead.
I am gonna go with Barry here. Diesel's for the most part can't rev above 4500-5000 RPM MAX. This limits their ultimate HP and requires they make ridiculous, drivetrain crushing torque levels to make big HP. I went to the Scheid Diesel Extravaganza this weekend and saw a bunch of 600-1600 HP trucks.
They make huge amounts of power but still not as much as top Vipers and look how long it takes them to spool ect.
Pimp my ride had a Duramax powered musclecar that made 800 HP and also got 20+ MPG which is pretty good, but once again not much better than a modded Viper that is tuned correctly. I like Diesels, but don't necessarily see them being a replacement for gasoline any time soon. Audi has had good success in LeMans--but that is also a function of fuel economy as much as raw speed.
He has been around a long time. He has build some serious cars and trucks, i specifically remember a twin turbo firebird that was makeing LOTS of HP and went nearly or more than 200 + mph
I am gonna go with Barry here. Diesel's for the most part can't rev above 4500-5000 RPM MAX. This limits their ultimate HP and requires they make ridiculous, drivetrain crushing torque levels to make big HP. I went to the Scheid Diesel Extravaganza this weekend and saw a bunch of 600-1600 HP trucks. Scheid_Pulling_Truck.mpg
They make huge amounts of power but still not as much as top Vipers and look how long it takes them to spool ect.
Pimp my ride had a Duramax powered musclecar that made 800 HP and also got 20+ MPG which is pretty good, but once again not much better than a modded Viper that is tuned correctly. I like Diesels, but don't necessarily see them being a replacement for gasoline any time soon. Audi has had good success in LeMans--but that is also a function of fuel economy as much as raw speed.
My father has an 83 shortbed Chevy 4X4 6.2 diesel that he installed a Banks turbo in. I think if someone tried to carjack it he would beat them to death...he loves that truck.
Had a banks power package on a tow rig. was a 8.3L I6 turbo CAT, banks upgrade was exhaust housing on turbo, and computer. Made about double the tq and an addition 200hp (from 280hp-480hp, from 500tq-950tq)
Real world....Stock pulling a 43' stacker, rig had trouble at all hills no matter the grade. even trouble cruisin at 60mph, couldn't pass on highway.
after upgrades, that thing would peg the gov at 75mph just about anywhere no probs....actually had to be carefull in 1st and 2nd gear without a trailer....
Audi has had good success in LeMans--but that is also a function of fuel economy as much as raw speed.
If anyone wants a good example of where a diesel will struggle look at the R10s when they race on the smaller tighter tracks. I believe the RS Spyder has owned them on every single one this year.
High powered diesels are excellent for automatic sedans and SUV's where their limitations are not really a problem...
you cannot expect a diesel to rpm from idle to 7000rpm in under a second like my old school 440 Mopar on pump gas could... diesels are inherently lazy to rpm as has been pointed out.
As for 800hp and 20mpg out of a diesel - a Viper can achieve over 1000hp and get 30mpg (at cruise) with the right setup and tune... and does not need several 1000psi fuel pressure nor 40psi+ boost to do it
banks makes some nice cast mainfolds for small block chevys with a t4 flange. I am using a set on the 911 v8 project. They are a little pricy but worth it
High powered diesels are excellent for automatic sedans and SUV's where their limitations are not really a problem...
you cannot expect a diesel to rpm from idle to 7000rpm in under a second like my old school 440 Mopar on pump gas could... diesels are inherently lazy to rpm as has been pointed out.
As for 800hp and 20mpg out of a diesel - a Viper can achieve over 1000hp and get 30mpg (at cruise) with the right setup and tune... and does not need several 1000psi fuel pressure nor 40psi+ boost to do it
Something has to be there with the diesels if Audi and Peugeot are dumping all of this money into their race cars. There are other forms of alternative fuels they could have used and they chose diesel.
Something has to be there with the diesels if Audi and Peugeot are dumping all of this money into their race cars. There are other forms of alternative fuels they could have used and they chose diesel.
yes - throw in less fuel stops, mega boost turbocharging, lightweight castings not previously possible on diesels vs naturally aspirated engines and on faster tracks that do not require ultra fast engine acceleration - yes - they have an edge.
Take ANY of the gas cars they race against and race turbocharge them and the diesels will suddenly look slow... even with the extra fuel stops
....and did I mention the great PR from being seen to be GREEN?
The irony is that while diesels have better emissions health wise - there is a lot more crude in diesel than in gasolene...
banks makes some nice cast mainfolds for small block chevys with a t4 flange. I am using a set on the 911 v8 project. They are a little pricy but worth it
Pics. or ban! Using anything from Renegade conversions?
As for 800hp and 20mpg out of a diesel - a Viper can achieve over 1000hp and get 30mpg (at cruise) with the right setup and tune...
I know-- 3rd gear in a Viper for 100 miles to allow for a racegas fill-up because of 30 MPG fuel economy FTL. First ride I got in a Viper was when Paolo went to Norwalk. He picked me up in Cleveland at the Greyhound bus station and we had to go 3rd gear the whole way to drain the tank because he had been getting around 30 MPG in D'Amico's first build. My ears were numb from that particular resonance.
...he loves that truck.