You know, you make some sense on this post, weird.
Luckily, I got my Z06 UNDER sticker and when the Blue Devil comes out, the only thing you need to be worrying about is how far behind the Viper is going to be, EVEN if modded with the unconfirmed Mopar 675 bhp package.
Just have to have connections. I dont pay sticker either but i sell them over.
My take on it is that the viper is way more valuable then the vette in any givin year from 92 to 06, just look at any site like edmunds.com, autotrader, cars.com. The viper by far holds its value better then most including the vette. Also even used value of a car( which is how I bought mine 47,000 99 rt/10) after 2 years of ownership, I could still turn around and sell it right now for that.
I guess my point is vipers rock , 480HP , 500 TQ ,no depreciation in two years, you can't beat it.
If your selling Z06s for $7k over sticker, you must live in Suckerville.
As far as the "new Vette" blowing away the '08 Viper... are you refering to the one that GM has not yet committed to (or even admits is anything other than theoretical)? The one that even if GM does go ahead and build won't be available for at least two years? The Blue Vapor? Is that the one you mean?? Even if it does become a reality, do you think DC never heard of supercharging?
From what I hear DC can bump the ponies up on the 08 quite a bit without a blower. Good luck blue joke.
On a side note, Do you guys see either camp ever giving up on beating one another in the power category, I mean how far up the horsepower ladder can thay take it.CRAZY
From what I hear DC can bump the ponies up on the 08 quite a bit without a blower. Good luck blue joke.
On a side note, Do you guys see either camp ever giving up on beating one another in the power category, I mean how far up the horsepower ladder can thay take it.CRAZY
Good point. The HP war has really escalated in the last few years. I think what will limit how much more HP can still be tapped is cost. GM has already hit a wall with the Z06. They managed to produce an extremely fast car at a bargain price, but the lack of reliability shows that you can't cut corners to keep cost down once you exceed 500 hp. Reliability of the new Viper remains to be seen, but it's simplicity and proven ruggedness compared to the Vette gives it an advantage here. On the other hand, DC does not offer different performance levels of the same platform like GM does. GM can justify building a "halo" Vette in very low production even if it loses money because it stimulates sales of the regular models. Hopefully, DC will build an ACR version of the Viper for the same reason. Not taking this approach could mean that the Viper (as a production platform) could go extinct long before the special edition Vettes.
I think we have another two or three years till cost reduces sales to a level that no longer is justifiable. Enjoy it while it lasts. These are the golden years!!
__________________
'04 Viper 11.9 @ 118
'05 STi 13.0 @ 105
'96 Supra 10.2 @ 133
Didnt want to go here but for 70k I get a Z06 and 20 grand left over to go race. 90k gets me a viper and nothing else outside of the nasty gas guzzler tax as well. The Vette is a proven platform race or otherwise. And why is it that any Viper I run into cant even beat a 20 year old vette with an L-98? Boy I am glad that I dont overspend and I am faster with half the horse power. Dont worry if I see any of you guys on the track I will wave when I pass you in the corners!!
Didnt want to go here but for 70k I get a Z06 and 20 grand left over to go race. 90k gets me a viper and nothing else outside of the nasty gas guzzler tax as well. The Vette is a proven platform race or otherwise. And why is it that any Viper I run into cant even beat a 20 year old vette with an L-98? Boy I am glad that I dont overspend and I am faster with half the horse power. Dont worry if I see any of you guys on the track I will wave when I pass you in the corners!!
LOL...oh man you are asking for it now...
BTW, the Vipers don't go for 90k, you can get an 06 coupe now for in the mid to low 70s because of the unveiling of the 08.
With your statement above, are you saying that the Viper is not on a race proven platform? If you are then you need to go stick your head back in the hole there hermit.
I am not a track racer by any means, but I do watch enough and know enough to know that you smoking some good shit.
If you ended your post after "didn't want to go here," you would have been much better off, because the rest of your post is full of .
__________________
"Just been Blown and loving it!"
Man, can we get an IP check around here. What's with all the Noobs recently.
I've owned 2 Z06's. my last 04 was procharged, and made 554RWHP, and it was fun to drive. I had put over $35K in aftermarket into it, and after it was all said and done, it was still "just a vette". I never say never, but I highly doubt if I ever buy one again. I sold mine 2 months ago, and only got $38K for it, with all the mods, and in perfect condition. Man, was that a kick in the nuts!
Didnt want to go here but for 70k I get a Z06 and 20 grand left over to go race. 90k gets me a viper and nothing else outside of the nasty gas guzzler tax as well. The Vette is a proven platform race or otherwise. And why is it that any Viper I run into cant even beat a 20 year old vette with an L-98? Boy I am glad that I dont overspend and I am faster with half the horse power. Dont worry if I see any of you guys on the track I will wave when I pass you in the corners!!
Bring your 20-year-old Vette to Moroso next weekend and wave to me in my 10-year-old Viper, stock from the air filters to the rear axles.
35,000 track miles and the heads have never been removed. Talk about a proven platform.
Well, I will make my prediction for which car is faster using simple physics. I will make the following assumptions:
2008 Viper
560lb-ft = 759 Newton-Meters of Work
3400lbs = 1542kg
3.07 gears
.3448 meter Wheel Radius
Z06
470lb-ft = 637 Newton-Meters of Work
3150 lbs = 1429 kg
3.42 gears
.3379 meter Wheel Radius
I will ignore air resistance, and assume 15% drive train loss. I will conduct the comparison in second gear for both cars(1.78:1). Assuming the viper has the same redline as the current srt-10 the viper will top out second at 89 MPH @ 6000rpm where as the Z06 will at 91 MPH @ 7000rpm. Therefore, this comparison will be fair since the relative mechanical advantage as compared to rpm will yield similar speeds in each gear. Finally, my calculation will be determining the peak acceleration of each car in second gear.
By Newton’s second Law:
Force = Mass * Acceleration
Therefore,
Acceleration = Force / Mass
I know the mass, so I need to get the force to solve this equation.
Work = Force * Distance
Force = Work / Distance
I know the work at the engine, but I need the work at the wheels.
Work at the Wheels = Final Drive Ratio*Transmission Gear Ratio*Torque at Engine* .85
The .85 is taking into account the drive train loss.
Lastly, the distance is the radius of the wheel.
Finally, I can solve the equation.
Acceleration = Work at Wheels/(Mass*Distance)
2008 Viper
Acceleration = (3.07 *1.78 *759*.85)/(1542*.3448)
Acceleration of the 2008 Viper at Peak in 2nd Gear is: 6.63 Meters/Second/Second or .677g’s
Z06
Acceleration = (3.42 *1.78 *637*.85)/(1429*.3379)
Acceleration of the Z06 at Peak in 2nd Gear is: 6.82 Meters/Second/Second or .696 g’s
To my surprise it looks like the z06 will be faster, but not by much 0.19 m/s/s. But, remember this does not take into account the vipers broader torque curve, and this ignores air resistance, driver weight, traction, etc… Also, the new viper may be able to rev higher than 6000 rpm, thus giving it the ability to pull to a higher mph than the z06 in each gear assuming it still has the 3.07. There are too many unknowns to get a real accurate depiction of what will happen in a straight line race. But, I will predict the z06 will be faster going by the current information at hand about the new viper. We will find out which is actually faster in a straight line sometime later this year hopefully.
Last edited by Cgillies86 : January 12th, 2007 at 12:55 AM.
Well, I will make my prediction for which car is faster using simple physics. I will make the following assumptions:
2008 Viper
560lb-ft = 759 Newton-Meters of Work
3400lbs = 1542kg
3.07 gears
.3448 meter Wheel Radius
Z06
470lb-ft = 637 Newton-Meters of Work
3150 lbs = 1429 kg
3.42 gears
.3379 meter Wheel Radius
I will ignore air resistance, and assume 15% drive train loss. I will conduct the comparison in second gear for both cars(1.78:1). Assuming the viper has the same redline as the current srt-10 the viper will top out second at 89 MPH @ 6000rpm where as the Z06 will at 91 MPH @ 7000rpm. Therefore, this comparison will be fair since the relative mechanical advantage as compared to rpm will yield similar speeds in each gear. Finally, my calculation will be determining the peak acceleration of each car in second gear.
By Newton’s second Law:
Force = Mass * Acceleration
Therefore,
Acceleration = Force / Mass
I know the mass, so I need to get the force to solve this equation.
Work = Force * Distance
Force = Work / Distance
I know the work at the engine, but I need the work at the wheels.
Work at the Wheels = Final Drive Ratio*Transmission Gear Ratio*Torque at Engine* .85
The .85 is taking into account the drive train loss.
Lastly, the distance is the radius of the wheel.
Finally, I can solve the equation.
Acceleration = Work at Wheels/(Mass*Distance)
2008 Viper
Acceleration = (3.07 *1.78 *759*.85)/(1542*.3448)
Acceleration of the 2008 Viper at Peak in 2nd Gear is: 6.63 Meters/Second/Second or .677g’s
Z06
Acceleration = (3.42 *1.78 *637*.85)/(1429*.3379)
Acceleration of the Z06 at Peak in 2nd Gear is: 6.82 Meters/Second/Second or .696 g’s
To my surprise it looks like the z06 will be faster, but not by much 0.19 m/s/s. But, remember this does not take into account the vipers broader torque curve, and this ignores air resistance, driver weight, traction, etc… Also, the new viper may be able to rev higher than 6000 rpm, thus giving it the ability to pull to a higher mph than the z06 in each gear assuming it still has the 3.07. There are too many unknowns to get a real accurate depiction of what will happen in a straight line race. But, I will predict the z06 will be faster going by the current information at hand about the new viper. We will find out which is actually faster in a straight line sometime later this year hopefully.
OK vette bitch, the SRT currently redlines at 6100 and the new one revs to 6400. And the mass is wrong, DC has cut off nearly two hundred pounds not to mention the better tranny or the better rear end, better clutch, lighter fly wheel, lighter wheels (non-run flats) and lighter rims (lots of unsprung weight = better acceleration, better braking and better haldling).
Crap, I put a 3.55 gears in my 2003 with K&Ns, mopar rims (about 10 lbs lighter per wheel, non-run flats, aluminum fly wheel and a B&M shifter and I can pull my buddies Z06 everytime. This is compairing a 2003 vehicle with mods against a stock 2006 but he still lost (everytime).
Check my old post, a stock 2004 SRT10 ran a 11.77 @ 123.63 (MotorTRend). Now shave 200 lbs off the car, add 100 HP (20% gain) with a higher rev and better grabbing tires and you think it will be close at all?
__________________
2002 FE GTS #71(forged internals+Paxton) (835 RWHP)
2003 SRT10 Paxton (674 RWHP)
2006 Ariel Atom, my DD....3 days a year
Well, I will make my prediction for which car is faster using simple physics. I will make the following assumptions:
2008 Viper
560lb-ft = 759 Newton-Meters of Work
3400lbs = 1542kg
3.07 gears
.3448 meter Wheel Radius
Z06
470lb-ft = 637 Newton-Meters of Work
3150 lbs = 1429 kg
3.42 gears
.3379 meter Wheel Radius
I will ignore air resistance, and assume 15% drive train loss. I will conduct the comparison in second gear for both cars(1.78:1). Assuming the viper has the same redline as the current srt-10 the viper will top out second at 89 MPH @ 6000rpm where as the Z06 will at 91 MPH @ 7000rpm. Therefore, this comparison will be fair since the relative mechanical advantage as compared to rpm will yield similar speeds in each gear. Finally, my calculation will be determining the peak acceleration of each car in second gear.
By Newton’s second Law:
Force = Mass * Acceleration
Therefore,
Acceleration = Force / Mass
I know the mass, so I need to get the force to solve this equation.
Work = Force * Distance
Force = Work / Distance
I know the work at the engine, but I need the work at the wheels.
Work at the Wheels = Final Drive Ratio*Transmission Gear Ratio*Torque at Engine* .85
The .85 is taking into account the drive train loss.
Lastly, the distance is the radius of the wheel.
Finally, I can solve the equation.
Acceleration = Work at Wheels/(Mass*Distance)
2008 Viper
Acceleration = (3.07 *1.78 *759*.85)/(1542*.3448)
Acceleration of the 2008 Viper at Peak in 2nd Gear is: 6.63 Meters/Second/Second or .677g’s
Z06
Acceleration = (3.42 *1.78 *637*.85)/(1429*.3379)
Acceleration of the Z06 at Peak in 2nd Gear is: 6.82 Meters/Second/Second or .696 g’s
To my surprise it looks like the z06 will be faster, but not by much 0.19 m/s/s. But, remember this does not take into account the vipers broader torque curve, and this ignores air resistance, driver weight, traction, etc… Also, the new viper may be able to rev higher than 6000 rpm, thus giving it the ability to pull to a higher mph than the z06 in each gear assuming it still has the 3.07. There are too many unknowns to get a real accurate depiction of what will happen in a straight line race. But, I will predict the z06 will be faster going by the current information at hand about the new viper. We will find out which is actually faster in a straight line sometime later this year hopefully.
You need to adjust your figures in two areas. Driveline loss on the Gen 3 is a proven 11% to 12%, not 15%. The '08 will have a higher red line. At the minimum, it will be 6250, but I have heard it could be as high as 6400. Also, the transmission gearing is being "optimized" for the new HP/TQ output and a significantly better differential is going to be used. Combine all that with better tires and there is just no way the current Z06 is going to be faster.
Call it what you want. The new Z06 has made me a better driver. Whereas the older ones were easy to pass...the new one, I actually have to put a little effort into passing them.
You need to adjust your figures in two areas. Driveline loss on the Gen 3 is a proven 11% to 12%, not 15%. The '08 will have a higher red line. At the minimum, it will be 6250, but I have heard it could be as high as 6400. Also, the transmission gearing is being "optimized" for the new HP/TQ output and a significantly better differential is going to be used. Combine all that with better tires and there is just no way the current Z06 is going to be faster.
I choose 15% as an arbitrary loss for both cars in order to be fair. The z06 might have a lower loss than 15% also. I will choose a 3.23 rear gear for the new viper in order to take advantage for the higher reving motor. That means the viper will top out second gear at 89-90 mph @ 6400, about the same mph as the z06.
Here is the same comparison that I did above with the following changes:
12% loss for both cars and 3.23 gears for the viper.
2008 Viper
Acceleration = 7.348 meters/second/second or .759 g's
Z06
Acceleration = 7.0672 meters/second/second or .721 g's
So, if the new Viper does indeed rev higher, and chrysler takes advantage of it, then the new Viper will be faster. I hope it is, so when I buy a gen 2 it will be cheaper
I just think its funny that all the vette guys bring up the point of Vipers dropping in value!
WTF, all cars depreciate BUT vettes are pros at it. Check Ebay! a 5 year old Z06 goes for 20 to 25 K half of original price (and it will continue to tank in value)
A 5 year old viper goes for 50K. Thats a 35% to 40% drop and its going to stay there.
A 10 year GTS cost 65K new and sell for 40 to 45K on the low side. and as high as 55K.
Vette boys, stop bringing up the depreciation arguement, you can't win
Viper has a slight better power/weight, but not by much. Plus, the Z06 has a little more aggressive gear still (3.42 vs. the Vipers 3.07). I think it will be a lot closer than we all think. Can't wait to see some road tests!!
Rear gear doesn't mean jack sh*t when your making 100lb-ft of torque more than your competitor...the current model (as mentioned) is already practically neck to neck with the C6 Z06 (its really a drivers race)...the extra 95HP will seal the deal with quite a bit of extra*...can't wait to see how dominate that new couple will be on a road course thought being the current model has ALREADY beat the C6 Z06 on the famed streets of willow road course...
I choose 15% as an arbitrary loss for both cars in order to be fair. The z06 might have a lower loss than 15% also. I will choose a 3.23 rear gear for the new viper in order to take advantage for the higher reving motor. That means the viper will top out second gear at 89-90 mph @ 6400, about the same mph as the z06.
Here is the same comparison that I did above with the following changes:
12% loss for both cars and 3.23 gears for the viper.
2008 Viper
Acceleration = 7.348 meters/second/second or .759 g's
Z06
Acceleration = 7.0672 meters/second/second or .721 g's
So, if the new Viper does indeed rev higher, and chrysler takes advantage of it, then the new Viper will be faster. I hope it is, so when I buy a gen 2 it will be cheaper
I admire your scientific approach, but consider this: DC specifically targeted the Z06 as "the car to beat" when they designed the '08. They had the luxury of being able to test directly against the Z and continue tweaking until they were absolutely certain that the new Viper would beat the current Z by a comfortable margin. Considering the embarrassment that DC would suffer if the new Viper doesn't beat the current Z, I'm sure the SRT guys realized that their jobs depend on putting a beat down on GM. I would bet the farm that the '08 Viper will easily dominate the Z in every performance category.
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