How can so many people be so confident of things well before they happen.
I think its very very likely that the new Viper is going to demolish the C6Z. As for Fadi's comment that the C5Z vs SRT-10 is a 'drivers race' - bullshit. The GTS vs the C5Z was somewhat of a drivers race, but with the Viper having the edge. We can debate road courses but all I will say about that is that most magazine drivers are not the best drivers, and they have little time to familiarize themselves with the car, and both the Viper and Z06 are not easy cars to go fast in on a track. Personally I find the Viper to be a bit harder, but thats debatable. Anyway, on the street where we use these cars most, what a car did at Sears Point or Road Atlanta is irrelevant. What *I* care about is straight line speed, looks, and braking since I use those on the street.
On those items, the only one the C5Z beat the Viper in is braking - and by a long shot. In the 1/4 mile, the GTS was a fair bit ahead of the C5Z. There is a guy near me, Rick, who had a black C5Z. He's well known on the Vette forums for squeezing the most out of the cars. I think he was the first to get his car in the 11's stock. Anyway, he was never able to beat my times stock-vs-stock in my GTS. When he ran DR's, yep he beat me but with a lower trap. SRT vs C5Z is not what I call a 'drivers race', unless you take a n00b in the SRT and put a pro in the Z. With equal drivers, the C5 is going to get its ass handed to it.
C6Z vs the SRT, it's clearly the Z's race. The gap is probably the same as the GTS to the C5Z, maybe even closer to the gap between the C5Z and the SRT. The SRT just does not have what it takes to beat the C6Z on a drag strip. On a road course, again don't bother arguing it because the driver skill is a much bigger component and both cars are so close that its hard to pick a clear winner. And since very few of us race stock on road courses, it matters not one bit other than making insecure assholes feel better about stretching to make the car payment they shouldn't have committed to in the first place
On the new Viper, how can some of you dipshits already call this race? Remember when the GTS used to get slammed for it's brakes? Until the SRT, the Viper had terrible brakes. The SRT has unbelievable braking. I would say Team SRT "more" than fixed the problem, agreed? The Viper went from shitty braking to Porsche-911-trouncing braking in one model iteration. They skimped out on the HP though.
In the 08, who is to say Dodge will not address another of the Vipers problem areas - the weight. They did not release the weight #'s which says to me they do not know yet. Presumably either because some parts are not finalized and/or they are trying to get the weight down. They would be doing that either because it's a fat pig and is overweight or because they are working on a lighter curb weight and dont yet know how well they did.
I'll bet on the latter.
DC made the mistake of not-enough-hp with the SRT. Many, me included, went to the Vette camp. But from what we know so far, the Viper looks to be ready to lay a beatdown to the Z. That may change, or it may be a bigger beatdown than people at first thought, but it's going to be awful difficult for the Z to retain the title. Don't forget DC has a defined target in the Z. Does anyone really think they are going to do all this work and release a car that's not definitively faster? I doubt it.
Great post, by the way. But I want to clear one thing up about Fadi's comment.
He was responding to others who were claiming it's a "driver's race" between the Viper and Vette. He said that's a broad statement, because you can ALWAYS say it's a "driver's race" between ANY two people racing in any car....but realistically, certain cars are faster than others (even though they may lose on the street from time to time). He has a video of him beating an SRT-10 in his stock or near stock C5-Z in a highway run, up to a pretty good speed. But he KNOWS the SRT-10 is faster (as well as everyone else). You won't see him claiming the C5Z is a driver's race with the SRT-10, even though he beat one....so he (as well as several others) are sick of hearing SRT owners say it's a "driver's race" between the SRT-10 and the C6 Z.
Also, I disagree with your statement that DC made a mistake with the SRT-10's horsepower. It came out in 2004, and had more than enough horsepower to take out anything on the road. The C6Z came out in 2006, and was able to accelerate faster at that time. Now, here it is, 2 years after its introduction....and it looks live DC is coming out with a faster Viper. You could say GM made a mistake with the HP in the Z06, but that's not the case.
It's a hp war, and the title is toggling back and forth between all the major American companies right now. It's a great thing, and I don't feel any of them are making a mistake.
(ok, Ford is...but of the 3 cars out there, I like the GT the best!)
Anyway, not trying to argue with you man....you've made one of the best posts in this thread. Just thought I'd clear something up, and debate with you a little
Great post, by the way. But I want to clear one thing up about Fadi's comment.
He was responding to others who were claiming it's a "driver's race" between the Viper and Vette. He said that's a broad statement, because you can ALWAYS say it's a "driver's race" between ANY two people racing in any car....but realistically, certain cars are faster than others (even though they may lose on the street from time to time). He has a video of him beating an SRT-10 in his stock or near stock C5-Z in a highway run, up to a pretty good speed. But he KNOWS the SRT-10 is faster (as well as everyone else). You won't see him claiming the C5Z is a driver's race with the SRT-10, even though he beat one....so he (as well as several others) are sick of hearing SRT owners say it's a "driver's race" between the SRT-10 and the C6 Z.
Exactly. Thanks for clearing that up for me brutha..
If GM releases the LS3 as the new base Vette motor for '08, it will likely have 450 hp (as previously reported). Although there has been no mention from GM, the LS7 could get a mid-gen bump to 545/550, similar to increases seen in the LT5 (C4) and LS6 (C5) mid-gens. This would narrow the lead of the new '08 Viper by two tenths in the quarter (assuming a 3400 lb. Viper).
My money will still be on the '08 Viper (literally) ousting the '08 Z06. As for the SS, any motor can easily receive FI, even the 600 hp '08 Viper.
If GM releases the LS3 as the new base Vette motor for '08, it will likely have 450 hp (as previously reported). Although there has been no mention from GM, the LS7 could get a mid-gen bump to 545/550, similar to increases seen in the LT5 (C4) and LS6 (C5) mid-gens. This would narrow the lead of the new '08 Viper by two tenths in the quarter (assuming a 3400 lb. Viper).
My money will still be on the '08 Viper (literally) ousting the '08 Z06. As for the SS, any motor can easily receive FI, even the 600 hp '08 Viper.
I have heard rumors that the LS7 won't pass emissions specs after this year, so the LS9 will be a supercharged 6.2L motor. If that is true, I'm amazed that Dodge is able to get away with this 8.4L beast.
And not ANY motor can easily receive F/I (well, at least not much). You need a forged motor and low compression heads if you want to add boost. I've yet to see an LS7 hold boost with stability, yet. The Viper engines seem to respond a lot better to it, I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the forged internals for certain years.
Actually, when Heffner's performance builds a turbo Gen III, they change the pistons and rods to forged and billet pieces, repectively. The stock pistons are cast and can't handle the boost.
ok i've messed around with a ford gt acouple of time on the road and taken this particular guy a few times, speeds never got above 80ish. On all of the road course tests i have seen the viper and zo6 have been dead nuts equal or viper wins by a hair. in a straight line the z wins, but eventually you have to slowdown/stop and/or turn!! these test were done with the current measly 510 hp cars with a few extra lbs. On the road course i'll still take a Viper
ok i've messed around with a ford gt acouple of time on the road and taken this particular guy a few times, speeds never got above 80ish. On all of the road course tests i have seen the viper and zo6 have been dead nuts equal or viper wins by a hair. in a straight line the z wins, but eventually you have to slowdown/stop and/or turn!! these test were done with the current measly 510 hp cars with a few extra lbs. On the road course i'll still take a Viper
I've heard this from several Viper owners. It's funny, because up until the recent MT magazine, EVERY magazine had the Z06 ahead in the road courses. It was the FGT that was neck and neck with the Z.
Maybe you are referring to the Coupe? I know most of the early tests were the Z06 vs. the convertible SRT.
The SRT-vert is lighter than the SRT-coupe(though slightly less aerodynamic) ! i forget which magazine has the test it was titled the USA vs. Europe(or something close) and the Z and SRT-vert were TIED in road course time with the Ford GT coming up a very close third. The SRT-10 will out brake and have higher cornering limits than the Z, while the vette is slightly quicker in a straight line. i just looked through my old mags sept '06 Road and Track
The Viper is a better road race car, period. On the positive side for heterosexually challenged vette owners, the vette attracts more homosexuals. If you enjoy being chased after by limp wristed pillow biters, the choice is clear. Go Z and don't ever look back (you could be getting lined up for a stiffy).
" Things might have turned out quite differently if this wasnt a strictly track focused event, but certian soldiers stood out as worthy of commendation. On the American side, the Viper gets the nod. On paper, the GT and Zo6 outperform it in acceleration, but its grip, confidence factor, controllability and effortless, explosive torque make it the track-day darling."
cars tested
Vette Zo6
Ford GT
ViperSRT-10 (vert)
Lambo Gallardo
Porsche TT(new model)
Ferrari F430
The SRT-vert is lighter than the SRT-coupe(though slightly less aerodynamic) ! i forget which magazine has the test it was titled the USA vs. Europe(or something close) and the Z and SRT-vert were TIED in road course time with the Ford GT coming up a very close third. The SRT-10 will out brake and have higher cornering limits than the Z, while the vette is slightly quicker in a straight line. i just looked through my old mags sept '06 Road and Track
How do you figure the Viper has more grip?
In 2005, Automobile magazine tested the Z06 and clocked off a 1.09 g in lateral acceleration. I don't think I have EVER seen those numbers for the Viper.
And as far as the Viper handling better, again, how do you figure? Most tests have the Z06 ahead around the track, with some going to the Viper and a few tied.
And as far as a straight line, the Z06 is not just "slightly" quicker than the current Viper. Not stock for stock. From a 50-150 roll, the Z06 would be siginificantly ahead of the Viper (4-5 cars). From a dig, its .4 secs and about 4 mph faster. That is not close in my book.
this does show higher cornering speeds and better braking slalom, skid pad and stopping distances
again i will mention that the lap times were equal, and have said it over and over these cars are close enough in performance that it will come down to who is the better driver. But for my dollar and enjoyment i would much rather have the Viper on a track than the Z. Another article in R & T it may have been Autoweek(much earler i think late '05 or spring '06) comparing the Z and the then new SRT-10 coupe said basically for track days, auto crossing, or the 24hrs of whatever they would rather be driving the Viper also.
this does show higher cornering speeds and better braking slalom, skid pad and stopping distances
again i will mention that the lap times were equal, and have said it over and over these cars are close enough in performance that it will come down to who is the better driver. But for my dollar and enjoyment i would much rather have the Viper on a track than the Z. Another article in R & T it may have been Autoweek(much earler i think late '05 or spring '06) comparing the Z and the then new SRT-10 coupe said basically for track days, auto crossing, or the 24hrs of whatever they would rather be driving the Viper also.
What the F' magazine is that???????????? Those are HORRIBLE times, for both cars. Good God!!! That's honestly the absolute worst comparison, by far, I've seen for these two cars.
That looks more like C5 Z06 times than C6.
0 - 100 in 8.9 seconds?????????? There are guys getting 0 - 100 in just over 7 seconds, stock, in that car!
this does show higher cornering speeds and better braking slalom, skid pad and stopping distances
again i will mention that the lap times were equal, and have said it over and over these cars are close enough in performance that it will come down to who is the better driver. But for my dollar and enjoyment i would much rather have the Viper on a track than the Z. Another article in R & T it may have been Autoweek(much earler i think late '05 or spring '06) comparing the Z and the then new SRT-10 coupe said basically for track days, auto crossing, or the 24hrs of whatever they would rather be driving the Viper also.
That is just one mag my good friend. I can come show you 2 other mags that have the Z06 ahead, then what?
Overall and in general, the Z06 from what I can remember had been ahead of the Viper in lap times, and way ahead in straight line acceleration.
You know, you and I can always test out the straight line acceleration of both cars. I have always said that a stock Z06 would be a good race with a bolt on Viper and your SRT-10 Viper happens to fall into that category given that it a bolt on car. So, what do you say? It is 50* out on Wed and sunny..
Last edited by Fadi : January 1st, 2007 at 07:05 PM.
On the positive side for heterosexually challenged vette owners, the vette attracts more homosexuals
That's an interesting view point Sadistic. As a Vette owner, I frequently come across other backyard mechanic Vette owners having stout cars that see track duty. These aren't dyno queens, and their owners are usually exchaning good performance tips with others on the boards. I also see quite a few red blooded American Vette owners kicking import butt at Willow. I don't think I've seen any homosexuals on the track.
Last edited by caseyse : January 6th, 2007 at 12:35 AM.
i will agree with you (Lankhoss)that the times are not stellar or best for either/any of the cars, BUT same track, same day, same driver(s) make it about as level of a playing field as possible in my eyes. Given the times and equal playing field a c5 Z06 would be slower still
BTW same test
0-100 f gt--------------8.2
ferrari f430---- 8.3
lambo gallardo----9.2
porsche tt----------9.5
Linear Mode
