The Gen III Concept GTSR was so sweet.... Big mistake not finding a way to produce that design. That car had/has the HOLY SHIT factor.
Other than the brakes, I'm not convinced the Gen III Coupe performs a whole lot better than the Gen II GTS. Slap a set of Stop Techs on the Gen II and you have a race.
I can see why SRT folks would not like Craig's opinions, but I think he's on the right track. SALES are your indication of whether something hit the mark or not. When you see GTS cars selling for more money than the newer models, it will be pretty clear which ones are in demand.
The 05-06 GTO is a car that is so superior to the original it isn't even comparable. It is so superior to other 'domestic' GM cars that it isn't even comparable. Better car - Absolutely.
Did it sell? No. So it's gone bye bye, and GM will only have one more shot to get it right. Dodge will be in the same situation, especially since all the "Hemi" knockoffs are selling like crazy.
The Viper used to be considered the leader, even though it was not as 'exotic' or expensive as the big boys like Ferrari and Lambo. It seems the newest Vipers are considered insignificant, which is why I start my car conversations by telling people I own a GTS Viper.
It's all about SALES - Everything else if just opinion and wishful thinking.
I can see why SRT folks would not like Craig's opinions, but I think he's on the right track. SALES are your indication of whether something hit the mark or not. When you see GTS cars selling for more money than the newer models, it will be pretty clear which ones are in demand.
The 05-06 GTO is a car that is so superior to the original it isn't even comparable. It is so superior to other 'domestic' GM cars that it isn't even comparable. Better car - Absolutely.
Did it sell? No. So it's gone bye bye, and GM will only have one more shot to get it right. Dodge will be in the same situation, especially since all the "Hemi" knockoffs are selling like crazy.
The Viper used to be considered the leader, even though it was not as 'exotic' or expensive as the big boys like Ferrari and Lambo. It seems the newest Vipers are considered insignificant, which is why I start my car conversations by telling people I own a GTS Viper.
It's all about SALES - Everything else if just opinion and wishful thinking.
Mike M
I will gladly print out every anti-srt-post I have ever made and eat it if the SRT-C becomes the success that was the 96-02 GTS.
I don't know, but 90K may have something to do with it. My '96 was, like, 52, the GTS was 72. 90 is getting up there.
The economy? Gas prices? There are so many factors to consider.
Also, you probably know this, but IS it not selling well, or was it just overbuilt? That is, are they selling comparably fewer SRTs per year wrt Gen IIs per year?
Anyway, I'm just saying that, personally, I'm very satisfied with the SRTC.
One thing I would point out is that the SRT does and did outsell the GTS, especially during the last years of that model when they couldn't even move 1000 cars a year - priced $8,000 less. Indeed, the GTS never sold a 1000 copies a year (worldwide) after 1997. Is the Coupe outselling the GTS? No idea. But Craig, you may want to figure out what you want to drink with your meal just in case...
IMHO, they overproduced the SRT-10 in 2004 (and again in 2005) and it was then a simply matter of supply and demand: When the supply exceeds the demand, the price drops and units sit unsold. It had nothing to do with style or anything else - it was simple economics. Did they sell over 1000 models a year after the SRT-10 was introduced? Absolutely.
Again, in my very humble opinion the plant was probably shut down to allow the existing inventory to deplete. Everything I have seen shows the Coupe to have been selling well and getting excellent reviews from both the press and the owners. Although I am with everybody else - more horsepower would definitely make it worth more of a premium over the Z06.
I don't know, but 90K may have something to do with it. My '96 was, like, 52, the GTS was 72. 90 is getting up there.
The economy? Gas prices? There are so many factors to consider.
Also, you probably know this, but IS it not selling well, or was it just overbuilt? That is, are they selling comparably fewer SRTs per year wrt Gen IIs per year?
Anyway, I'm just saying that, personally, I'm very satisfied with the SRTC.
Price may have something to do with it however what was the average US salary in the US then Vs Now?
I know it won't work out exactly the same but the SRT mandate that every car must be profitable is what has driven the price up as well, again this flies in the face of the Viper philosophy from the start that regardless of it not being profitable the image it gave to the company was worth much more than any profits that could be derived from such a low volume car.
it doesn't evoke that "holy hell dat shit is craaaazy" that the GTS did when introduced.
Well maybe not, but it gets more comments and looks than the GTS did (near the end of my ownership). For instance, I was at the MBZ dealership in Newport Beach. Their customer's 360 Spyder and a Gallardo (not atypical) were in the lot. One young mechanic was walking through and turned to me to say, "Holy shit. That's the most beautiful car I've ever seen".
That's not proof of anything, I realize, but I guarantee you the SRTC attracts every bit as much attention as my new GTS did.
One thing I would point out is that the SRT does and did outsell the GTS, especially during the last years of that model when they couldn't even move 1000 cars a year - priced $8,000 less. Indeed, the GTS never sold a 1000 copies a year (worldwide) after 1997. Is the Coupe outselling the GTS? No idea. But Craig, you may want to figure out what you want to drink with your meal just in case...
IMHO, they overproduced the SRT-10 in 2004 (and again in 2005) and it was then a simply matter of supply and demand: When the supply exceeds the demand, the price drops and units sit unsold. It had nothing to do with style or anything else - it was simple economics. Did they sell over 1000 models a year after the SRT-10 was introduced? Absolutely.
Again, in my very humble opinion the plant was probably shut down to allow the existing inventory to deplete. Everything I have seen shows the Coupe to have been selling well and getting excellent reviews from both the press and the owners. Although I am with everybody else - more horsepower would definitely make it worth more of a premium over the Z06.
mmm beer for me please.
In order for the new coupe to be a success dodge must:
1) Surpass total GTS sales for previous gen
2) Factory backed FIA racing, win LeMans 3 times and kick everyone else's ass in the process
3) become the Viper that all other Vipers are and will be compared to.
The point you make about why the plant was shut down is spot on in my opinion. They shut down to let the inventories sell off...but herein lies the problem, why are they overproducing the car like this? All that does is kill values!
DC's relentless need to make a miniscule profit off these things is something that I think is one of the core problems with the entire Viper program these days.
"we can't race because it's not profitable"
"we can't do the coupe concept because it costs too much, here's a roof slapped on an SRT-10"
See what I am getting at? They have taken the ultimate no compromise car and smeared it with a bunch of corporate BS and they stand by it like it's the best thing ever. I just cannot agree with that when the damn vette runs with it, is better set for the track from the factory all for less money!
Dodge screwed up its opportunity to provide a car for those waiting for something more. Just look how many people on this site have gone from a stock Viper to a modded viper and then either they bought an SRT to tide them over until the coupe came out and when that flopped they went above that into a Gallardo, a Ford GT or a Ferrari. If dodge had've stepped it up perhaps they could have saved more face, kept the Viper at the head of the pack (instead of 3rd) and retained some Viper owners in the process.
Instead they slapped a roof on, tossed in some GTS tail lights and called it new.
BAH!
Personally I would take an SRT-10 long ahead of a SRT-C.
__________________
Money doesn't buy you happiness. However, poverty won't buy you a damn thing.
Personally I would take an SRT-10 long ahead of a SRT-C.
Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout. I neverrrrrrr even CONSIDERED the roadster.
Oh, well. Horse races and all that.
PS - And why didn't they call the SRTC something else (like with the GTS after the RT/10). As of now, both the coupe and the roadsters are, technically, both SRT-10s. They didn't call it an RT/10C.
you are in every one of these topics posting the same garbage. I read most of the posts on the forum, don't reply to many though. I simply can't understand why you constantly assert yourself on the same topic saying the same shit over and over again. Free country though, so post away, and I will do the same
And you also constantly contradicting yourself with previous posts with statements such as these:
They shut down to let the inventories sell off...but herein lies the problem, why are they overproducing the car like this? All that does is kill values!
you are in every one of these topics posting the same garbage. I read most of the posts on the forum, don't reply to many though. I simply can't understand why you constantly assert yourself on the same topic saying the same shit over and over again. Free country though, so post away, and I will do the same
And you also constantly contradicting yourself with previous posts with statements such as these:
They shut down to let the inventories sell off...but herein lies the problem, why are they overproducing the car like this? All that does is kill values!
Please point out the contradictory part of what I said.
I said that they are overproducing the car and that is why they shut down. Overproducing the car leads to excess inventories which means supply > demand which = lower prices new and even lower used prices.
Why do I keep posting the same thing? Because I think its why the Viper is in the situation it is currently in. The Viper as a product is lost and confused. Dodge doesn't know what it is and as a result they can't sell the damn thing. Just look at how many "special edition" SRT-10's there are. Special editions can help bolster sales....when you do them in moderation. When you are pumping out a new special edition every 3 mos it's nothing special. Why does it not occur to ANYONE at SRT that a special edition version of a SPORTS CAR should have some performance enhancements, colored stiching and a dash plaque is not performance enhancing. It's ego stroking for windbreakers plain and simple.
Answer me this question. Aside from being exclusive, for 90K, what does the Viper offer than the Z06 doesn't? Why should a person spend the extra money to buy a Viper over a Z06?
I think that is the question SRT really doesn't want to answer because it offers sweet fuck all over the Z06. Yes it is more exclusive and some people want that, great...but how many people are in that category? Not that many or the Viper wouldn't be suffering plant shut downs. Additionally, Chevy doesn't seem to be having any problems selling the Z06 and dealers aren't having to dump them to get rid of them.
You want to know why I post this same stuff over and over? Because I've spent a hell of a lot of time pondering why I think the situation is what it is today. As someone who has been a fan of everything Viper since I first saw the thing I am passionate about it and instead of being a blind follower of anything dodge slaps the Viper name on I would rather be critical and assess why this has all happened. Initially I didn't like the car because of the styling and because it was a vert. In addition to that, SRT didn't race the thing as they did the GTS-R. I think that every single sports car should have a factory backed racing program, what did SRT do? They entered a CC in drifting.
Do I want to see the Viper back on top? Absolutley no question about it. Will it happen? I am doubtful but still hoping. As an automotive enthusiast and not just a brand whore I am obliged to look at other brands and acknowledge what they do right and what they do better...and worse, it's part of being objectional and its what gives you credibility.
The Viper has been poorly managed and poorly directed, when SRT turns its shit around and stops stuffing the same hemi in everything and actually lends some attention to its flagship and puts it back in the lead, then I will change my tune. Until then I will continue to be critical.
On a side note, a used SRT-10 is one of the best used car values out there so I guess there are some positives.
The number built is an important stat - No arguing that. I remember I used to be able to buy a new Harley, ride it for 5K miles, and then sell it used for more than I had in it. Then Harley started cranking out 250,000 bikes a year instead of 80,000 bikes a year.
I was saying I would expect prices to increase sharply only if there was an announcement that the viper was done. This increase would of course apply to the later low mile gen Vipers and unique cars. You're "typical" Vipers wold follow later.
I understood exactly what you said, and my point was directed at exactly that. You won't see the sharp price increases with such an announcement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig201MPH
The biggest problem with the SRT-10 and moreso namely the SRT-C is that it offers sweet fuck all in its segment. Put aside that I am a fan of the Z06 and just compare the two. Why on earth would you buy a Viper over the Z06? To be unique? Ok that's fine, although the problem with that crowd is that there appears to be so few of them.
SRTC seems to be comparable in real world cost the Z06. Plus the Z06 looks like the rest of the Vettes, so the SRTC does give the standout factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig201MPH
With the Ford GT being the upper and the Z06 being the lower, that puts the viper in the middle...which is a bad place to be, especially when its unjustified.
Yep, that is a bad spot that 100-150 HP would readily fix. The SRT already has the dominant braking and other performance, the Ford GT obviously would not match the HP increase since it is going away, and the Z06 apparently has peaked the power that GM is reasonably going to get out of that engine. Thus, the HP increase would made the Viper dominant - done deal. We'll see what happens when the frontal impact regs go into effect and what design changes happen then.
__________________ 98 RT/10 4 sale! Under $40k - see VCA classified for details
I can tell them apart easily, I couldn't care less if others can't. I don't derive my self worth based on how unique or rare my posessions are. If I am happy, that's all that matters and I would rather be going faster....cheaper, uniqueness be damned. The Z also gets the nod in sound.
The Viper may have better brakes but when's the last time someone offered to race you to zero?
Craig, the Z06 is a great Corvette. Corvette being the key word there. I would still prefer to have the Viper.
Does having a person who is a "fan of the Viper since introduction" , who bashes the piss out of the car help the Viper? You are critical of every part of the car, from the stripes, to the top, when on the SRT-10 it was just the design absolutely sucked. My point being....it is one thing after another that you find to hate the car, and you being critical on thousands of posts will not help Dodge pull its head out of its ass.
There are things that we all would like to see on every car on the market, and if you feel that it is your job to highlight all of the SRT car's shortcomings, you have that right.
I personally would just prefer to enjoy the car until the next generation comes out, and not have people continue to bash the car. It really doesn't help anything, and I can promise you that Dodge doesn't give a flying fuck as to your opinion. Some points that you make are great ones, it just gets annoying as hell to see someone continue to bash something that most of us here have busted our asses to own.
Craig, the Z06 is a great Corvette. Corvette being the key word there. I would still prefer to have the Viper.
Does having a person who is a "fan of the Viper since introduction" , who bashes the piss out of the car help the Viper? You are critical of every part of the car, from the stripes, to the top, when on the SRT-10 it was just the design absolutely sucked. My point being....it is one thing after another that you find to hate the car, and you being critical on thousands of posts will not help Dodge pull its head out of its ass.
There are things that we all would like to see on every car on the market, and if you feel that it is your job to highlight all of the SRT car's shortcomings, you have that right.
I personally would just prefer to enjoy the car until the next generation comes out, and not have people continue to bash the car. It really doesn't help anything, and I can promise you that Dodge doesn't give a flying fuck as to your opinion. Some points that you make are great ones, it just gets annoying as hell to see someone continue to bash something that most of us here have busted our asses to own.
Corvette being the key word??? Although it may be mass produced the car has endured 50+ years which I think is an accomplishment all its own considering how many things have changed since 1953. While you may look down your nose at it being "just a vette" remember that up until 1992 the Vette was the cats ass as far as American sports cars went save for the years the 427 Cobra was around.
What exaclty is a Viper anyways? Lets look at from a non-dodge nutswinger point of view.
The Viper was conceived by a ripoff idea that went back to the 1960's. Dodge, in the 1980's struggling for an identity turned to Ford for its inspiration for a flagship car. From there they even went on to rip off a snake name for the car in which they tossed an engine being designed originally for truck use.
How is this exclusive again? Because it has a V-10? Because it's expensive? Maybe. Most likely it's exclusive due to its awesome, revolutionary design and soon to be established racing dominance and low production
