am i missing something here? noone said the faster vipers cannot race, what was said is that at least four need to commit so as to make a class for them? and, there are other divisions to race in as well. im not as experienced in this racing shit as most so educate me cause it seems like its as easy as show up and race and win some cash
I think it's cool that if 4 cars show, they can run.
HOWEVER,
I think the problem some are having is the groups are getting so segregated that some seem to be getting an advantage. Why is it fair that the supercharger guys (who are often making mid 800's to the wheels) won't be running with guys who use multi-stage NOS or turbos? An all-motor car without NOS isn't going to be competitive with a supercharged car. And a SC like the Roe or Paxton kit isn't going to be competitive with the DLM/Heffner cars.
The fact is the highest horsepower cars generally are the SC cars - but they don't run as quickly. The NOS cars have the times down, and the turbo cars seem to do well too. Both these types of cars are considered "two power adders" and get bumped to that class. That just kinda sucks. Why not just make a special supercharged class and let them run off - they have already made sure (by special rules) that no turbo or NOS car will be able to hang, so it seems like they're really creating their SC class anyway, but they are letting the all-motor guys run (they need fodder?).
What if the all-motor guys realized they were 200hp down on the SC guys, and decided to segregate the classes even more, so that SC's were "2 power added" (a compressor and an FMU)? The SC guys would be screaming bloody murder.
It's great to have classes that people COULD take a win in, but how is a guy with a stock motor and a single stage of dry NOS going to be able to run with an 850RWHP supercharged car? Answer - he won't. But that is the same argument being used against allowing turbo or dual-stage NOS cars to run in the 1 PA class. It just seems this event is biased towards making sure the DLM and Heffner cars come out on top. And if folks say it isn't biased, why not follow the same rules the rest of the whole world uses - that 2-stage NOS or turbos is ONE power adder? Why isn't that good enough for the Viper world, and why isn't it just a way to exclude the guys who would otherwise win?
mikey, i couldnt agree more in this clusterfuck of a race event. but until everyone agrees to grow some sack and run what you brung, it seems we'll just have to be part of segregation so as not to bruise egos and make some go crying to mommy cause they got beat. truthfully i havent seen this much whnning since i watched two chicks fight in middleschool. me personally, id be embarrased to know i took first place in a fixed event but if some need a plastic trophy that bad then more power to them
truthfully i havent seen this much whnning since i watched two chicks fight in middleschool. me personally, id be embarrased to know i took first place in a fixed event but if some need a plastic trophy that bad then more power to them
You said a MOUTHFUL there, bud. Thats the real problem - everyone wants to "win", but what will end up happening is a DLM or Heffner car will take the trophy, then the turbo or NOS guys will say it wasn't fair they were in a seperate class, and someone will add "winner, Viper nationals" to their sig, and a pissing match will break out.
Hennessey had a good point - why bother going 2,500 miles just to lose based on a rulebook?
You got the right idea Mojo, go there for fun. Too bad the egomaniacs can't do the same.
An all-motor car without NOS isn't going to be competitive with a supercharged car.
And a SC like the Roe or Paxton kit isn't going to be competitive with the DLM/Heffner cars.
but how is a guy with a stock motor and a single stage of dry NOS going to be able to run with an 850RWHP supercharged car? Answer - he won't.
Mike, I will have to debate the points above based on et slips from the fastest s/c cars.
An all motor car can hang with the s'c cars...didn't SW lay down a 10.0x ?
A NO2 car can be a wet shot and I believe a stock motor single stage wet shot can run the et's that the s/c cars can run.
The et's from the Heffner and DLM camp are not that much faster then Roe et's to declare a winner in a drag race.
It's really sad that no s/c car has ever been in the nines. Like you said, a car like mine for example...stock motor with s/c only should be calling b.s. on running cars with 850 rwhp. Don't get me wrong.....I think all the cars need a place.....but it's not going to be easy.
An all-motor car without NOS isn't going to be competitive with a supercharged car.
And a SC like the Roe or Paxton kit isn't going to be competitive with the DLM/Heffner cars.
but how is a guy with a stock motor and a single stage of dry NOS going to be able to run with an 850RWHP supercharged car? Answer - he won't.
Mike, I will have to debate the points above based on et slips from the fastest s/c cars.
An all motor car can hang with the s'c cars...didn't SW lay down a 10.0x ?
A NO2 car can be a wet shot and I believe a stock motor single stage wet shot can run the et's that the s/c cars can run.
The et's from the Heffner and DLM camp are not that much faster then Roe et's to declare a winner in a drag race.
It's really sad that no s/c car has ever been in the nines. Like you said, a car like mine for example...stock motor with s/c only should be calling b.s. on running cars with 850 rwhp. Don't get me wrong.....I think all the cars need a place.....but it's not going to be easy.
I know it won't be easy, Tony, but I just think it's unfair that the class seems heavily biased against anyone not using a "big name" supercharger.
It seems that most of the big number Roe/Paxton guys also have engine mods - so I think those guys would be in the 2PA class (which sucks for them). I honestly don't think a stock car with a Roe SC will be hanging with Roof or GaryA's car - do you think they will? We're talking about a 250-300RWHP gap here. The Roe ET's seem to be in the mid 10's and most seem to have other engine work. how fast are the bolt on + Roe guys running?
Regarding SW's run, I have heard different opinions on whether that was motor AND NOS or just motor. And it doesn't seem to have been equalled yet, so it seems to be an anomaly. I think the next closest run was in the 10.2x range, no?
On the NOS, you could run a 500 wet shot, but the fact that it must all come at once (dual stage is considered 2 PA's) to me seems silly. Think about the terminology - 2 stages is really "half a PA, then a full PA" - but they are considering it 2 PA's.
Maybe the fairest way to do it would be to just have different RWHP classes - but then the guys with 9 billion RWHP who are still running mid 10's would be pissed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I just think that every other drag racing sanctioning body has this pretty clear - I don't see why the Vipers are so special, other than the fact that the SC guys haven't been able to hang with the NOS or turbo cars - which also happen to be the ones being left out. If I had a TT car, I would feel absolutely in the right place to be lined up with someone like Roof's car or GaryA's car. If some dude with a 500++ stoker and a direct port of NOS, with a race automatic tranny, i would feel it was a totally unfair classification.
Mike, Just so I am clear....You mean the class is biased IN favor of big name s/c cars (meaning DLM/Heffner) ?? (not that I agree or disagree....just need to clarify your opinion)
I don't really want to debate the Roe cars to much ..since I have one, but there are a few stock motor Roe cars that "could" compete with the DLM, Heffner cars. When I say compete, I mean "have a shot at winning" as in a 10.60 Roe car vs a 10.20 car. Granted....I had rather be driving the 850 rwhp car [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] but it's not to big of a stretch. Same way with a good n/a car.....if it can run mid tens then it is at least in the hunt. On the same note, a 10.20 car is "in the hunt" racing a 9.70 car.
For me........yes, throw ALL the engine mod/power adder cars in their own class and let me run against the stock motors. We can't even get this other worked out so I don't want to be the one to go there.
For now......
And somebody tell me if I am wrong....but at this race the cars that were in the unlimited class at BG don't care where the DLM/Heffner cars run....they just want to have a class to run in ???????? True or False ? If true...then will my above suggestion work ?
Bottom line....at this race the rules are not going to change.....let's move on and get a class going for the fast cars to race in.
Paul...What kind of dollar for dollar will Ohio match in entry fees if there are four or more unlimited cars ?
I agree with the tt vs roof or Gary theory.
In other sanctioning bodies the classes are even more in depth......what can or can you not do to the motor ? Intercooler and no intercooler. Turbo and s/c INLET size. I will check but I THINK several of the Mustang class rules limit a turbo to one and not two turbos. The problem is that they have 300+ cars at their races and we have 20 cars. If you have 300 you can have a class for everyone.
Everybody repeat after me: HEADS UP RACING IS DONE ON A PRO TREE.
ALL THIS BANTER IS THE REASON I HAVE LONG SUGGESTED THAT VIPER DRAG RACING CLASSES BE DETERMINED BY SPEED BRACKET AND NOT MODS. THUS SOME GUY WITH A GEN 1 WIHT DIRECT PORT THAT RUNS 10.6 AND ANOTHER GUY WITH A GEN 2 SC THAT RUNS 10.6 COULD BOTH RUN IN THE 10.5 - 11.0 CLASS.
ONE DAY SOMEBODY WILL WAKE UP AND THINK, GEE JOHN HAS A GOOD IDEA THERE. I JUST HOPE SOMEBODY WILL ORGANIZE THE DRAG RACING PROGRAM FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL.
DR. ROOF HAS SHOWN THAT HE CAN DO IT. THE VCA SAYS THEY WANT TO SUPPORT IT BUT HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING YET FROM WHAT I CAN SEE. SULOFF HAS THE BIGGEST EVENT NAME BEING CALLED 'VIPER NATIONALS' AND LOTS WANT TO ATTEND, BUT IT IS A MAJOR CLUSTER FUCK IN THE RULES SO THERE IS ALL THIS FIGHTING. PRASHANT HELPS PUT TOGETHER GOOD EVENTS HERE IN TEXAS. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU GUYS WAITING FOR, JUST RENT THE DAMN TRACK IN SAN ANTONIO AND DO AN EVENT AND CUT OUT THE CLASS BULLSHIT ON THIS MOD IS OK AND THAT MOD IS NOT.
I mean biased in favor of the DLM/Heffner cars. I am not saying anything bad about any of the cars or kits out there, I'm just saying that it seems sorta unfair when you have a guy (like you) who spent less and is maybe running a little less going against guys with massive blowers running in the mid-800's HP wise. I love to see the cars run, but it just seems that a guy who has an 800-900HP turbo car is in the same league as the DLM/Heffner cars, yet that guy would need to be running against unlimited cars, which may be a lot more wild than a TT car on ET streets.
I think the classes is a good idea, the only problem I have is that I don't think it's fair to call a 2-stage NOS or a TT car a "2 power adder" car, and put them in the class with guys that have strokers + NOS or SC + NOS or solid rear axles and lencos or whatever. It just seems like there is a niche missing for guys with 2 stages of NOS (which doesn't mean more NOS, it really means less NOS overall). I feel bad for those guys... and I can't help thinking (based on the response from the last event) that it's really more about a certain small goup of guys looking to setup a class that they are the top dogs in. Belive me, I would love nothing more than to see an underdog take the trophy... but if you do it, be prepared for accusations that you ran NOS, or had motor work, or any other number of accusations that will come later [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I think you're right - it's not a huge deal and this is in it's infancy, but if they are trying to create a national series and call it the "Viper nationals", then it's setting a dangerous precedent, IMO. And also, I can tell ya right now that as soon as one of the handful of ego-kings in a DLM car takes the win, it will be touted as "fastest forced induction car ever!" when really it's somewhat of a hollow victory.
I think some are scared of John's TT car - and they should be, but keep it out because of the auto tranny not because it has 2 turbos which they call "2 power adders".
John, ET classifications are not a bad idea, but unless you know what someone ran at the last "official" event, how do you police that? Maybe I can only run mid 10's at my track but if I all of a sudden run a 9.70 at this event, you KNOW everyone is going to scream "cheater!". And ET classifications basically mean bracket racing - and I personally HATE bracket racing. I just like to see the big boys bring out their fast toys and see who runs the best times. It kinda takes away from the allure for the little guy like me when someone who is (or might be) faster doesn't run. Sorta like if you wanna see a couple of boxers who you know are good fight one another, but their managers don't want to do it because they both are too worried about not winning, ya know?
Let me shed a little light on the subject if I may.
I was sitting in on the meeting when this was all discussed in Columbus OH back at the April Chrysler Classic. A few points:
1. Paul Suloff and the rest of the Ohio VCA board are guys I know and respect. They genuinely want to make this a first class event.
2. There is no hidden agenda about wanting someone specific to win or not to win. I can promise you that.
3. The one flaw I can see in the planning, especially from this thread, is the lack of realizing just how important this event could/would be to the big tuners as both competition and advertising "bragging rights".
4. I cannot speak for Paul, but I'm sure he would be open to any possible change that satisfies all the tuners if it can be justified (i.e. a good reason why a TT is only 1 P.A. for instance)
5. The Chrysler Classic website is general and doesn't reflect anything in realtime. The intention is to have at least a fast-8 bracket if we have the numbers rather than a fast-4, etc.
Guys- this is how the meeting went down. We looked at last year's event and discussed on how we can improve it. Last year, pretty much the only non-Ohio guys that showed up were Scotty (TOOFAST) and his gang from the Chicago area. We really only had about 7 Vipers race, and a fast-4 was appropriate because there were really only about 4 running under 12.5. The Dial-in last year was called due to a rainout.
This year we wanted to expand on our numbers and really make this a Viper Nationals, a first class event, not just a coined term for a few Ohio racers. There was discussion of even comping or at least subsidizing the cost of the trip, including lodging, to bring some of the "big guys" from Florida and Texas. THIS MAY STILL HAPPEN. The purse will be determined by our turnout. MOST OF THE DETAILS ARE STILL UP IN THE AIR (as far as I know).
Y'all need to chill. Here is what I can propose to do.
Last year, in the weeks leading up to the event, Paul Suloff was the only guy posting on .org basically advertising for the event (very few Ohio guys actually use or know how to use the boards). He got some feedback, yet we had a small turnout. This year, there is already alot of buzz surrounding this event. V10MOJO, SB, JH, and others are really starting to run smack about takin' home the crown. We were in Columbus for the Mopar Nats last week and I made sure that Terry Bosserman (Ohio Pres) and Calvin Smith (Ohio board member) were aware of what was going on. They had no clue. I told them to make sure that they weren't overwhelmed. The Norwalk event is our biggest each year by far. Last year we had about 25-30 Vipers (a few garage queens and drive ins, but only 7-10 racers). Weather permitting, I HOPE we get close to 50 Vipers and at least 20 or so racers. This is dependant on many of you guys who post on this board.
SO - A Neo-Classic is being held in Columbus again this weekend with Viper drags and auto-x. I will be back there, along with V10MOJO and some others. Paul Suloff will be there as will the promoter of the Norwalk event and several other Ohio board members. I WANT TO SEE YOU GUYS IN NORWALK. Anyone who is seriously considering bringing a car, 9 sec or otherwise, but is hesitant because they are unsure of the format, purse, classes, etc. Contact me directly 440-725-2171. I will organize each tuner/racer's question or concerns and have a formal meeting this weekend to discuss them. In short, I will try to be an objective rep to square away any worries or hesitation about coming to this event. Either Paul or myself will get back in touch with you after this weekend to arrange a subsidizing package (maybe?) or at least give a formal and final rules and classes format.
I really want to see this event shape up. Don't hesitate to call.
By the way, I don't post on the .org. If anyone wants to copy any or all of this memo into a relevant thread on that site, Go ahead.
-Chic
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