Paolo, bottomline is that to start the thread (by Jay) was at best a sham to do. The kit is only capable running this power in an unsafe fashion and in a way YOU the builder doesn't condone. Maybe the more relevant thing to do is for you to post the dyno graph up of the runs made with filters on and piping in place like you publicly stated OEM does? Until then, point made. And made quite well. For the record. I read a post in September in which the owner asked about his kit while you talking about Allens results. Your response was that jigs were being adjusted due to your install experience with Alternatives ride. So which is it, PBJ's fault for the 4/5 month delay or yours with the jig issue?
Congrats on the build and numbers! It is great to see multiple tuners offering various configurations and price points to meet just about any owner's power level and budget It is a great time to be a Viper owner!
If only the customers and acquaintances of each of these turners could at least try to be adults once in awhile, it would be so much better to read the results UGR, CPE, Heffner and the rest are accomplishing for their satisfied customers. However that would be like asking for utopia....
1267 RWHP on 22 PSI on a 708 cammed stock displacement motor is right up there with the best of them.
...In anticipation for my 2000 ACR being almost finished with a nice built motor and billet main caps testing the limits of the system, I had designed and fabricated some solid air intake piping for my car and to upgrade the existing customers who were interested. Notice the date on the pictures.
I will be dynoing my car with the setup you see in the pictures in the next week or so and will report the results....
Awesome stuff Paolo, I think I speak for many of us here when I say I'm looking forward & very excited to see what number this system will do on a properly built motor. At 1304rwhp, it's already exceeded my wildest expectations and bruised a lot of EGO's for a $9.9K DIY TT kit. Keep up the great work, keep raising the performance-to-cost bar, and most importantly....keep us posted*
Forgive me for still being confused. I thought one of the huge benefits to the CPE TT system (at least according to the CPE camp) was that it makes all of its numbers on pump gas and with the filters in place.
Am I now to understand that this car was not only running a forged bottom end, big Striker heads, and an upgraded fuel system, but also HAD THE ENTIRE INTAKE TUBING SYSTEM AND BOTH AIR FILTERS REMOVED and was using race fuel?
Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like the CPE TT kit could only make 14psi with the air filters and flexible tubing in place and did not yield anywhere NEAR 1267 rwhp until you removed the restrictive air intake system and the boost spiked (accidentally) to 22 psi. Running without air filters is completely contradictory to what all of the CPE supporters have alleged and is hypocritical in light of their derogatory posts about those who chose to remove the filters on their cars.
Furthermore, according to the owner,
So this is not what would normally be expected from this car under normal conditions? So one can't expect 1267 rwhp from this kit as it is designed and driven on the street?
And then some quotes from the owner on this board:
Again, maybe I'm reading too much into these posts, but it sounds like:
1. This is a $30,000 build (not a $10k bolt-on build);
2. It took longer than expected to complete;
3. The 1267 rwhp was a complete fluke;
4. The 1267 rwhp was made with the entire intake system, including filters, removed;
5. The heads are a big part of the reason the car made the power;
6. The power was made on race fuel; and
7. The owner is simply glad it didn't blow up and will never run that kind of power on the street.
You're not confused, but it's nice of you to present it that way. That's the biggest bunch of lawyer BS I have seen. At least no one paid you $500 to write it. (perhaps you were billing someone...who knows ???)
Fluke is a bad choice of words, unexpected = better choice. Fluke would indicate that it could not be duplicated...not so in this case.
The heads....most here are not morons and would expect the Striker heads to help ANY build. Were you trying to go somewhere with that ??? The man already had the heads...did you expect him to remove them for a "test" ? No one is keeping the heads secret and trying to present it otherwise.
The big power was made on race fuel....uh....so. Is that supposed to make a point ?????
Stock main caps and that power.....I would be glad it didn't blow up too. Every pass in my car with the stock motor and 800whp I was glad it didn't blow up
Trying to twist everything around may fool 5% but everybody else knows better.
I'm actually glad to see these posts because it relates right back to your statement " completely contradictory to what all of the CPE supporters have alleged and is hypocritical in light of their derogatory posts " except in this case it shows that you guys are no different than what you claim the CPE crowd to be. Up until now innocence has been proclaimed
__________________
1996 GTS CPE TWIN TURBO !!
Old Roe s/c numbers:
9.28 @ 151mph with nitrous
9.68 @ 144mph no nitrous
10.41 @ 149mph on Pilots
Greg Good cylinder heads and cam !!
2004 black SRT10 (SOLD)
Paolo, bottomline is that to start the thread (by Jay) was at best a sham to do. The kit is only capable running this power in an unsafe fashion and in a way YOU the builder doesn't condone.
Josh,
I think you're reading into this too far... the car was and will never be driven on the street that way. It was the first time turning one up that high and they found a restriction in the system.
It was removed to confirm this.. and will be replaced with hard pipes so as to alleviate the situation. With those in place, the car will have no trouble duplicating the results with all the filters and such in place.
(not directed at you, just a blanket statement)
And I don't think anyone was arguing this was a $10k out the door setup. The car had a nicely built motor to begin with. The point was, that he had a solid base to start with, and ditching the roe for this simple kit netted him 1300rwhp.
Yes there is prob ~$25k in it total. With other peoples $25k TT setups (if there are any), do you get stryker heads, billet rods, and 1300rwhp?
This car is I'm guessing, with in $5k of the price of those paxton cars with the headwork and such. How much would it cost to get those two cars to make 1300hp?
Warranty wise. I'm sure Paolo would be happy to warranty any issues with a build he installed and tuned. Being a DIY kit, if it's customer installed and tuned, the motor longevity is pretty much in their hands. I doubt Kevin or anyone will warranty a motor if the customer takes tuning into their own hands.
You're not confused, but it's nice of you to present it that way. That's the biggest bunch of lawyer BS I have seen. At least no one paid you $500 to write it. (perhaps you were billing someone...who knows ???)
Fluke is a bad choice of words, unexpected = better choice. Fluke would indicate that it could not be duplicated...not so in this case.
The heads....most here are not morons and would expect the Striker heads to help ANY build. Were you trying to go somewhere with that ??? The man already had the heads...did you expect him to remove them for a "test" ? No one is keeping the heads secret and trying to present it otherwise.
The big power was made on race fuel....uh....so. Is that supposed to make a point ?????
Stock main caps and that power.....I would be glad it didn't blow up too. Every pass in my car with the stock motor and 800whp I was glad it didn't blow up
Trying to twist everything around may fool 5% but everybody else knows better.
I'm actually glad to see these posts because it relates right back to your statement " completely contradictory to what all of the CPE supporters have alleged and is hypocritical in light of their derogatory posts " except in this case it shows that you guys are no different than what you claim the CPE crowd to be. Up until now innocence has been proclaimed
Tony, You do realize the owner hadn't been made aware of the removal of piping and increasing of the boost until after it was done, don't you? Do you condone that? Tom already made that point clear from his posting. Surely Paolo would have stood responsible for "whatever could" of happened if something went south but maybe it isn't really his purgative to make that choice for his customers. I sure wouldn't be pleased with UGR doing risky things with my car that they don't condone, regardless of who is going to foot the bill.
Why would Paolo up the boost after removing the intake piping and filters. If he believed this to be the restriction wouldn't you think he would keep boost relative to previous levels FIRST before ramping up the guys kit? Seems like some puzzle pieces are missing. Maybe Kevin D. stuffed the evidence down his throat and washed it away with Paolo's manshake too?
There really should be some standards for posting dyno sheets and making comparisons.
For example, when Josh posted his dyno sheet, he posted the SAE CORRECTED numbers. CPE posted uncorrected numbers (which are notoriously higher).
When Josh posted his dyno sheet, he indicated that it was with pump gas, water/meth and filters off. He was absolutely SLAMMED for using water/meth and taking the filters off. Now, CPE posts a dyno sheet using race gas and the filters off.
Josh's build is $15k, installed and tuned, plus the heads. The $15k includes the blower, a full fuel system with 3 in-tank pumps, lines, rails, injectors, FPR, etc., an AEM, a new crank pulley, and all of the installation and tuning. It's an out the door price. It's not a la carte.
The CPE kit STARTS at $10k. But you MUST add some type of engine management, which is at least $1,100. Then you need to add a fuel system. Then you pay someone to install it all. Then you pay someone to tune it. Now, you're up in the $18-20k range. There's nothing wrong with that, but to try to make it sound like you get 1000+ rwhp for only $10k is not completely accurate.
To be intellectually honest, tuners should use an "installed and tuned" price, use the same fuel type (pump, pump + water/meth or race fuel) and use SAE corrected dyno numbers. Otherwise, it's basically a shell game of ever changing stages of builds, types of fuel and adjusted dyno numbers.
I don't recall ever seeing an actual $10k TT kit on any car ever. Alternative's car was not a $10k, DIY kit. He paid to have someone install it and tune it. He paid for an upgraded fuel system. He paid for upgraded intercoolers.
GTSnake's car is CLEARLY not a $10k kit. It has a built motor, big Striker heads, fuel system, and was installed and tuned by someone else.
I don't recall what all Jody Gleason had, but at a minimum, I was under the impression that it was installed and tuned by someone else and had a fuel system.
So where is an actual $9,995 kit that someone installed by themselves, without upgrades?
I don't think there is one. And that's fine. But to be fair, you need to compare apples to apples. A fully built and tuned CPE turbo kit on pump gas (or pump and water/meth) with corrected numbers against whatever else, be it another TT kit, or a blower kit using the same fuel type and same corrected numbers.
I think you're reading into this too far... the car was and will never be driven on the street that way. It was the first time turning one up that high and they found a restriction in the system.
It was removed to confirm this.. and will be replaced with hard pipes so as to alleviate the situation. With those in place, the car will have no trouble duplicating the results with all the filters and such in place.
(not directed at you, just a blanket statement)
And I don't think anyone was arguing this was a $10k out the door setup. The car had a nicely built motor to begin with. The point was, that he had a solid base to start with, and ditching the roe for this simple kit netted him 1300rwhp.
Yes there is prob ~$25k in it total. With other peoples $25k TT setups (if there are any), do you get stryker heads, billet rods, and 1300rwhp?
This car is I'm guessing, with in $5k of the price of those paxton cars with the headwork and such. How much would it cost to get those two cars to make 1300hp?
Warranty wise. I'm sure Paolo would be happy to warranty any issues with a build he installed and tuned. Being a DIY kit, if it's customer installed and tuned, the motor longevity is pretty much in their hands. I doubt Kevin or anyone will warranty a motor if the customer takes tuning into their own hands.
This is excellent news DB, now if Paolo can say it then it may mean something. No offense to you of course
Looking at Paolo's first post in this thread, #11 to be exact, a bit misleading huh?
There really should be some standards for posting dyno sheets and making comparisons.
For example, when Josh posted his dyno sheet, he posted the SAE CORRECTED numbers. CPE posted uncorrected numbers (which are notoriously higher).
When Josh posted his dyno sheet, he indicated that it was with pump gas, water/meth and filters off. He was absolutely SLAMMED for using water/meth and taking the filters off. Now, CPE posts a dyno sheet using race gas and the filters off.
Josh's build is $15k, installed and tuned, plus the heads. The $15k includes the blower, a full fuel system with 3 in-tank pumps, lines, rails, injectors, FPR, etc., an AEM, a new crank pulley, and all of the installation and tuning. It's an out the door price. It's not a la carte.
The CPE kit STARTS at $10k. But you MUST add some type of engine management, which is at least $1,100. Then you need to add a fuel system. Then you pay someone to install it all. Then you pay someone to tune it. Now, you're up in the $18-20k range. There's nothing wrong with that, but to try to make it sound like you get 1000+ rwhp for only $10k is not completely accurate.
To be intellectually honest, tuners should use an "installed and tuned" price, use the same fuel type (pump, pump + water/meth or race fuel) and use SAE corrected dyno numbers. Otherwise, it's basically a shell game of ever changing stages of builds, types of fuel and adjusted dyno numbers.
I don't recall ever seeing an actual $10k TT kit on any car ever. Alternative's car was not a $10k, DIY kit. He paid to have someone install it and tune it. He paid for an upgraded fuel system. He paid for upgraded intercoolers.
GTSnake's car is CLEARLY not a $10k kit. It has a built motor, big Striker heads, fuel system, and was installed and tuned by someone else.
I don't recall what all Jody Gleason had, but at a minimum, I was under the impression that it was installed and tuned by someone else and had a fuel system.
So where is an actual $9,995 kit that someone installed by themselves, without upgrades?
I don't think there is one. And that's fine. But to be fair, you need to compare apples to apples. A fully built and tuned CPE turbo kit on pump gas (or pump and water/meth) with corrected numbers against whatever else, be it another TT kit, or a blower kit using the same fuel type and same corrected numbers.
In other words, if y'all didn't start no shit, there wouldn't be no shit.
Paolo, bottomline is that to start the thread (by Jay) was at best a sham to do. The kit is only capable running this power in an unsafe fashion and in a way YOU the builder doesn't condone. Maybe the more relevant thing to do is for you to post the dyno graph up of the runs made with filters on and piping in place like you publicly stated OEM does? Until then, point made. And made quite well. For the record. I read a post in September in which the owner asked about his kit while you talking about Allens results. Your response was that jigs were being adjusted due to your install experience with Alternatives ride. So which is it, PBJ's fault for the 4/5 month delay or yours with the jig issue?
Josh, the turbos were moved up about .25" on both sides this had no bearing on the time frame and the car is not 4-5 months late.
It's about 6 weeks late due to the delay at Joe Donovan's due to the parts vendors not being able to be reached on Saturday and the corresponding delay for Donovan to be able to work in my customer's car into his already booked schedule.
Like I said on the VA post, I am grateful to Joe Donovan to have worked the extra hours to get my customer's car squared away in addition to his heavy work load.
You are stirring shit and wasting my time.
__________________
The slippery slope of modding any car often seems unavoidable.......... Just go turbos and avoid all the headaches! LOL!
This is excellent news DB, now if Paolo can say it then it may mean something. No offense to you of course
Looking at Paolo's first post in this thread, #11 to be exact, a bit misleading huh?
None taken.. I don't even begin to think I can speak on their behalf and IMO, it would be better if some of the little ass weasels around here would do the same.
I think the entire point here was that this is getting to the upper end of what the basic $10k kit can do. It's the same turbos, same manifolds, even the basic small front mount intercooler.
If someone buys the $10k kit, installs it, etc. And decides they want more power down the road, there is plenty of room to grow the car as they grow a pair to drive it.
As well not everyone has the skill or facilities to install it themselves. I don't think CPE should be burned at the stake because some customers choose to pay someone to install it. The option is there if anyone wants it.
If it makes everyone happy (and to cut the bullshit)... Why doesn't Paolo throw together a 1300rwhp side mount package. Installed, tuned, built motor, ready to rock and roll. List the price, and be done with it.
I'm tired of hearing all these claims of smoke and mirrors bullshit from EVERYONE.
There really should be some standards for posting dyno sheets and making comparisons.
For example, when Josh posted his dyno sheet, he posted the SAE CORRECTED numbers. CPE posted uncorrected numbers (which are notoriously higher).
When Josh posted his dyno sheet, he indicated that it was with pump gas, water/meth and filters off. He was absolutely SLAMMED for using water/meth and taking the filters off. Now, CPE posts a dyno sheet using race gas and the filters off.
Josh's build is $15k, installed and tuned, plus the heads. The $15k includes the blower, a full fuel system with 3 in-tank pumps, lines, rails, injectors, FPR, etc., an AEM, a new crank pulley, and all of the installation and tuning. It's an out the door price. It's not a la carte.
The CPE kit STARTS at $10k. But you MUST add some type of engine management, which is at least $1,100. Then you need to add a fuel system. Then you pay someone to install it all. Then you pay someone to tune it. Now, you're up in the $18-20k range. There's nothing wrong with that, but to try to make it sound like you get 1000+ rwhp for only $10k is not completely accurate.
To be intellectually honest, tuners should use an "installed and tuned" price, use the same fuel type (pump, pump + water/meth or race fuel) and use SAE corrected dyno numbers. Otherwise, it's basically a shell game of ever changing stages of builds, types of fuel and adjusted dyno numbers.
I don't recall ever seeing an actual $10k TT kit on any car ever. Alternative's car was not a $10k, DIY kit. He paid to have someone install it and tune it. He paid for an upgraded fuel system. He paid for upgraded intercoolers.
GTSnake's car is CLEARLY not a $10k kit. It has a built motor, big Striker heads, fuel system, and was installed and tuned by someone else.
I don't recall what all Jody Gleason had, but at a minimum, I was under the impression that it was installed and tuned by someone else and had a fuel system.
So where is an actual $9,995 kit that someone installed by themselves, without upgrades?
I don't think there is one. And that's fine. But to be fair, you need to compare apples to apples. A fully built and tuned CPE turbo kit on pump gas (or pump and water/meth) with corrected numbers against whatever else, be it another TT kit, or a blower kit using the same fuel type and same corrected numbers.
Mark, I posted the uncorrected and corrected #'s in my 1st post on this thread.
Tony, You do realize the owner hadn't been made aware of the removal of piping and increasing of the boost until after it was done, don't you? Do you condone that? Tom already made that point clear from his posting. Surely Paolo would have stood responsible for "whatever could" of happened if something went south but maybe it isn't really his purgative to make that choice for his customers. I sure wouldn't be pleased with UGR doing risky things with my car that they don't condone, regardless of who is going to foot the bill.
Why would Paolo up the boost after removing the intake piping and filters. If he believed this to be the restriction wouldn't you think he would keep boost relative to previous levels FIRST before ramping up the guys kit? Seems like some puzzle pieces are missing. Maybe Kevin D. stuffed the evidence down his throat and washed it away with Paolo's manshake too?
I haven't talked to Paolo but here is what I gather (from reading like we all have)......
The owner probably wasn't aware of the removal of the piping.....the increasing per the controller was already done before that. It was a mistake not turning the controller back down to see what happened without the piping. No, I don't think the owner had to be asked to remove the piping/filter (only on the dyno)....I'm 99% sure he would have ok'd it....My assumption, I don't know him. One thing that gives me confidence is that PBJ was watching over this session...I like many have quite a bit of respect for PBJ. I would expect if the motor had blown due to going from 14/16 psi to 22 then Paolo, PBJ, whoever was responsible would have made it right. It sure wouldn't be the first time in the world a booboo was made on the dyno (or strip or street) and blew a motor.
We are debating a scenario that didn't happen...no blown motor. It is an EXCELLENT reference for the future though. Sounds like even going from the flex to hard piping might warrant a low boost controller setting initially.
A few (CPE NS) have commented that this car would have made the same power it made without the piping if it had solid piping. I'm not so sure of that AT the same controller settings. That may be true if it would still be at 22psi with the hard piping...if it was capable of 22 psi with the hard piping. I just don't know enough to agree. It looks like Paolo is going to be showing us on his car in the near future.
And the last comment....I had rather not even think about Paolo's man juices
Can we not all reasonably debate this w/o accusations and innuendos ? I don't see why every thread has to be an us against them. And yes.....that should go both ways. Both kits are producing and both have pluses and minuses. I'm glad there are options. Before the Roe s/c there really were no reasonable ($$$ IMO) options.
If it makes everyone happy (and to cut the bullshit)... Why doesn't Paolo throw together a 1300rwhp side mount package. Installed, tuned, built motor, ready to rock and roll. List the price, and be done with it.
I'm tired of hearing all these claims of smoke and mirrors bullshit from EVERYONE.
I never thought I'd say this, but that is an excellent post.
I'd add one more: How much does it really cost to make 900 rwhp, installed and tuned? That could probably be accomplished with the base TT kit, a VEC2, a small fuel system and installation and tuning. My guess is, 900 rwhp will come out around $16,000 out the door.
Then you can compare what it takes to get 900 rwhp installed and tuned by various vendors, and what it costs to get 1300 rwhp installed and tuned by various vendors. That's fair.
The only thing I really took issue with in this whole thread was post #11 which would lead the casual reader to believe that a $10k TT kit was capable of 1300 rwhp. The fact of the matter is that CPE took advantage of a narrowly diverted disaster and tried to turn it into an accomplishment. Accidentally running 22 psi on a customer's car, with no air filters and no billet main caps, is a HUGE risk. The fact that the car isn't hurt is more of a miracle than it is an achievement.
Can that same setup make 1300 rwhp with better main caps and better tubing? Maybe. That's probably not too much of a stretch. But as I've said before, there needs to be some standards for comparisons.
Price for all parts, installed and tuned.
Same fuel used
Corrected figures used on the dyno sheets
Otherwise, I actually have a 1500 rwhp TT kit for sale for around $4,000. It comes with two (2) 78mm T-4 turbos. Of course, if you want headers, bov's, wastegates, an intercooler, any piping or couplers, any brackets, a fuel system, engine management, or installation, those are extra. But technically, the base kit is only $4,000.
Apples to apples. That's not an unreasonable request.
I think the HP figure was a shock, but the boost pressure and tune weren't a total "oh shit". It has a boost cut feature so it was still inside their deemed safe paramaters, and I'm sure PBJ had the tables laidout far enough to know it would be safe up to that point.
Also... the main cap HP limit has A LOT to do with the tune and fuel. As with anything, you're building it to live and survive with a little bit of detonation. The fact that it went through all that and didn't see any main cap issues tells me the tune was very safe on the fuel they were using.
You can pound the bearings out at 1100 using the best parts money can buy with a shitty tune... and apparently a good tune lets seemingly weak links hold up shockingly well. Though I wouldn't recommend making a habit out of it.
It is a great time to be a Viper owner!
