KEVIN i am having a problem with a math question hopefully you can shed some light for me. Joe made 1600rwhp and runs low 10 tens or high 9's, Brian made 900 and runs 9.20 how is that possible. By the way Josh's car looks awesome and well thought out at a performance level where he will keep his car. Most viper owners are professionals or small business owners not drag racers. Most sell their TT cars with hugh hp within 3 to 6 months because they don't have time, are not comfortable with the power or just scared shitless of it for a fraction of the price paid. Josh be safe and enjoy your project.
If you spin the entire quarter mile and are constantly on and off the gas, good numbers are hard to find. I believe everytime he hooked up and actually put the power down, he broke something (tranny, diff, driveshaft, halfshafts ect....not the engine)
THE FORMER PFR, boost is controllable why not get a decent pass and granny shift if necessary instead of balls to the wall approch. Maybe we should give some credit to Kevin for 7.98 with a six speed car, spinning and still able to get a great time. My point was hp is not all that is needed to go fast but the full package and a good driver with big balls.
KEVIN i am having a problem with a math question hopefully you can shed some light for me. Joe made 1600rwhp and runs low 10 tens or high 9's, Brian made 900 and runs 9.20 how is that possible. By the way Josh's car looks awesome and well thought out at a performance level where he will keep his car. Most viper owners are professionals or small business owners not drag racers. Most sell their TT cars with hugh hp within 3 to 6 months because they don't have time, are not comfortable with the power or just scared shitless of it for a fraction of the price paid. Josh be safe and enjoy your project.
I think there are a couple of things that affect the numbers.
BLOWNGTS' car had stock heads and stock compression. I don't doubt for a minute that the car made 900 rwhp with the advertised Paxton kit (with fuel system, etc) on stock heads. Under the appropriate conditions (cool, dense air, good tune, 100 octane fuel, etc), there is nothing suspect about those numbers at all.
However, when you port a set of heads, you almost necessarily reduce the compression of the motor. Generally, porting a set of heads on a blower application also means that you see less boost. A 17 lb pulley on a car with stock heads should make 17 lbs. That same pulley on a car with ported heads may only make 15 lbs. What you might make up for in power from the heads, you might lose in boost pressure. However, you're now making the same 900 rwhp with less manifold pressure, which is probably a good thing.
Josh's car probably sees less boost than BLOWNGTS' car and is also on pump gas with water/meth, yet makes the same power. I am relatively certain that Josh could have made 900 rwhp with his stock heads, but he'd likely be running more boost with higher compression.
Add to that the fact that the NOVI 2000 only flows a max of about 1400 cfm, and at some point, you're just going to run out of flow.
Personally, I'd rather make 900 rwhp on less boost with ported heads than make the same 900 rwhp with more boost and stock heads. The ported head setup just seems safer.
The claim is 900rwhp on pump gas, installed, done, out the door. And as Kevin just stated, all their builds are warranted and safe at the advertised numbers.
So why... are the cars needing ported heads and such to be "safe"... If that was the original claim that there would be no issue on pump gas to begin with?
So in the end, you're what, ~$20k with the heads and rockers, into a maxed out paxton at low 9xx rwhp. Thats a far cry from 900rwhp on stock heads for under $15k.
The claim is 900rwhp on pump gas, installed, done, out the door. And as Kevin just stated, all their builds are warranted and safe at the advertised numbers.
So why... are the cars needing ported heads and such to be "safe"... If that was the original claim that there would be no issue on pump gas to begin with?
So in the end, you're what, ~$20k with the heads and rockers, into a maxed out paxton at low 9xx rwhp. Thats a far cry from 900rwhp on stock heads for under $15k.
I recently went through this scenario with UR as I was considering the Paxton kit. Safety has degrees. Heads offers more safety with the option of turning it up in a formal race situation. With the stock heads it's still safe but you have nothing to turn up if you want to go racing. This is what I was told and it made sense to me.
Why is everyone making such a big deal about the 900"advertised"h.p. with stock heads. Jesus is it really that big of a deal if the car makes 880 or 900? Hell even if the car makes 850rwhp it should actually be advertised as 1000+ for $$$$$ and that should be the end of it. If someone is going to make a big deal about a 20 or even 40 h.p. difference then they have a problem because 850+ anything that is street driven is really to much. This h.p. war is getting to be a little ridiculous. I'm not a customer of UGR but I would have to say that they are delivering every bit, and then some of what they are advertising. You can not have that many satisfied customers if you weren't. Oh and by the way, I'm not so sure on the higher boosted cars but in stock trim(7.5lb of boost) filter or no filter=7.5lbs of boost. No change. I'm for sure it makes a difference on higher boost levels but I have never ran a filter with the smaller pulley so I'm not sure.
I recently went through this scenario with UR as I was considering the Paxton kit. Safety has degrees. Heads offers more safety with the option of turning it up in a formal race situation. With the stock heads it's still safe but you have nothing to turn up if you want to go racing. This is what I was told and it made sense to me.
That may be the case... but what is the limit, and what is involved in turning it up? If they already have a custom crank pulley, then what, you have to pull the blower head unit to swap pulleys?
Then you're fully committed to that setup till you labor through changing it back?
With, max another 100hp on the table?
The point is.. if you're making claims of xxx hp for $xxx, attempting to solidify a better deal than X competator, you should follow through with those claims. Stating 9xx rwhp on a stock motor, then deliverying 850 without airfilters, or needing another $6k in parts isn't exactly being truthful imo.
Especially when other people do deliver the advertised claims and with a much higher ceiling on the peak hp available with no major surgery involved.
That may be the case... but what is the limit, and what is involved in turning it up? If they already have a custom crank pulley, then what, you have to pull the blower head unit to swap pulleys?
Then you're fully committed to that setup till you labor through changing it back?
With, max another 100hp on the table?
The point is.. if you're making claims of xxx hp for , attempting to solidify a better deal than X competator, you should follow through with those claims. Stating 9xx rwhp on a stock motor, then deliverying 850 without airfilters, or needing another $6k in parts isn't exactly being truthful imo.
Especially when other people do deliver the advertised claims and with a much higher ceiling on the peak hp available with no major surgery involved.
That may be the case... but what is the limit, and what is involved in turning it up? If they already have a custom crank pulley, then what, you have to pull the blower head unit to swap pulleys?
Then you're fully committed to that setup till you labor through changing it back?
With, max another 100hp on the table?
The point is.. if you're making claims of xxx hp for , attempting to solidify a better deal than X competator, you should follow through with those claims. Stating 9xx rwhp on a stock motor, then deliverying 850 without airfilters, or needing another $6k in parts isn't exactly being truthful imo.
Especially when other people do deliver the advertised claims and with a much higher ceiling on the peak hp available with no major surgery involved.
Pablo really filled you up with the white kool-aid huh? Let's see are you a cpe customer, cpe himself, or just a cpe wanna be nut sucker????
Pablo really filled you up with the white kool-aid huh? Let's see are you a cpe customer, cpe himself, or just a cpe wanna be nut sucker????
I haven't made a single mention of any other tuner, don't chastise me with this nutswinger b/s. The nutswingers are the guys who jump down anyones throat that dare even question the results of their buddies. I'm not attacking or accusing anyone, just asking questions. Pipe down unless you have something constructive to add.
Heaven forbid someone deliver what they claim in their sales pitch.
But as I sift through the thread of "900rwhp on pump gas" then see the guys who actually buy the kits getting the same power, with another $5-6k (i'm taking a wild guess at that figure from my experience, could be more or less) in upgrades, doesn't seem like that great of a deal.
Guys were paying ~$20k for 900rwhp blower cars 3-4 years ago, that isn't exactly ground breaking.
If I'm so far off base, why hasn't this kit been seen as in advertised form? And if you can so easily crank it up to race numbers, surely with headwork and such it should be pretty impressive, what kind of numbers are they seeing?
If I'm so far off base, why hasn't this kit been seen as in advertised form? And if you can so easily crank it up to race numbers, surely with headwork and such it should be pretty impressive, what kind of numbers are they seeing?
If nobody asks for it to be built in stock form what would you have UR do? The increases on cars like Josh's and Snore's are in the tune. Who are you again?
The point is.. if you're making claims of xxx hp for , attempting to solidify a better deal than X competator, you should follow through with those claims. Stating 9xx rwhp on a stock motor, then deliverying 850 without airfilters, or needing another $6k in parts isn't exactly being truthful imo.
Especially when other people do deliver the advertised claims and with a much higher ceiling on the peak hp available with no major surgery involved.
Dude, you cant be serious. If you are trying to make a reputable company look bad because you think that they are cheating any one out of a couple of h.p. then its not working. Guess what, no 2 cars are the same and you will have to give or take a couple pony's. Your acting as if there claiming 900rwhp and only delivering 700rwhp and thats not the case. Some cars make 900 and some make 880 so 10-20h.p. is the norm in any build. If you take two of the same cars to the track and run them with One making 870rwhp and the other making, lets just use the magical # of 900rwhp, do you even know how little the difference is going to be between the too of them if at all any? Your not making know one look bad SO LET IT GO ALREADY.
Last edited by VIPERRACING : January 14th, 2008 at 06:13 PM.
Man you guys sure are defensive... I haven't made anyone look bad or any false accusations what so ever.
Just merely asking... If I put a set of heads on my car, I expect a substantial HP increase from it.
And to me paying ~$20grr for a 900hp blower car is extremely different than what was originally stated.
How about this, we'll keep it simple. If you don't work for underground, or own one of the cars in question, muzzle yourself and let the guys who own something involved do the talking.
Man you guys sure are defensive... I haven't made anyone look bad or any false accusations what so ever.
Just merely asking... If I put a set of heads on my car, I expect a substantial HP increase from it.
And to me paying ~$20grr for a 900hp blower car is extremely different than what was originally stated.
How about this, we'll keep it simple. If you don't work for underground, or own one of the cars in question, muzzle yourself and let the guys who own something involved do the talking.
I was actually hoping that you would muzzle yourself.
Man you guys sure are defensive... I haven't made anyone look bad or any false accusations what so ever.
Just merely asking... If I put a set of heads on my car, I expect a substantial HP increase from it.
And to me paying ~$20grr for a 900hp blower car is extremely different than what was originally stated.
How about this, we'll keep it simple. If you don't work for underground, or own one of the cars in question, muzzle yourself and let the guys who own something involved do the talking.
You are making clear inferences here that UR was falsely advertising their blower package. You are clearly alluding to the CPE package for comparison. Since you won't tell anyone who you have done any Viper business with or what it was, you have NO standing to tell anyone to refrain from addressing your accusations. If UR hasn't had a customer ask for a stock Paxton build you have no basis to infer they can't make the advertised 900 hp until they do. Who are you again?
I haven't made a single mention of any other tuner, don't chastise me with this nutswinger b/s. The nutswingers are the guys who jump down anyones throat that dare even question the results of their buddies. I'm not attacking or accusing anyone, just asking questions. Pipe down unless you have something constructive to add.
Heaven forbid someone deliver what they claim in their sales pitch.
But as I sift through the thread of "900rwhp on pump gas" then see the guys who actually buy the kits getting the same power, with another $5-6k (i'm taking a wild guess at that figure from my experience, could be more or less) in upgrades, doesn't seem like that great of a deal.
Guys were paying ~$20k for 900rwhp blower cars 3-4 years ago, that isn't exactly ground breaking.
If I'm so far off base, why hasn't this kit been seen as in advertised form? And if you can so easily crank it up to race numbers, surely with headwork and such it should be pretty impressive, what kind of numbers are they seeing?
I certainly understand the question. And I believe that I provided to you the answer. But let's take a quick recap.
UGR claims that they can provide a 900 rwhp blower setup for $15k. They have already posted dyno sheets of a stock long block car making 900 rwhp (on a 100 octane blend) with the same parts offered in their current $15k kit. Now, rather than run a 100 octane blend, they offer a water/methanol kit that allows you to run pump gas instead. Same basic setup with a minor improvement.
Your question is: If you can really make 900 rwhp on a car with stock heads, why bother porting the heads? First, there are the economic advantages of doing everything at once. If you're going to spend the money on the blower, why not do the heads and maybe a cam while the car is there? There is a shipping and a labor savings by combining the additional work. Second, there is the ability to make the same or more power with less manifold pressure. Why do some people run bigger, more expensive turbos with less boost if they only make the same power as a smaller, cheaper turbo running higher boost? Because less manifold pressure is generally considered a good thing. Finally, the "ad" was for 900 rwhp. Both Sean and Josh are making MORE than 900 rwhp. Josh is around 920, and Sean is around 950, I believe. So my guess is that the ported heads and/or headers are responsible for the difference.
I don't think there is anything false about the setup making 900 rwhp on factory heads, as it has already been done. It just seems like most people would rather have MORE than 900 rwhp and would rather run less boost to do it, which is why they go with ported heads.
I would respectfully disagree that 9xx is the limit for the Paxton as there are at least two UGR cars which have eclipsed 1000 rwhp with their setup (and heads/cam). I would also disagree that people were only paying $20k for systems 4 years ago and making over 900 rwhp. I've seen the original DL blower kits from back in the day make 700 rwhp and the bill was in excess of $40k. Even the DL blower setups that DID make 900 rwhp were not done for $20k and they didn't run pump gas. $20k wouldn't even cover the cost of the blower kit, let alone the heads/cam, motor build, etc. Now, you can legitimately walk away with 900 rwhp on pump gas for $15k, including the supporting fuel system, AEM computer, etc.
Finally, although a simple pulley swap would likely yield 40-50 more rwhp, in my opinion that small of a pulley is not as desirable for the street. It's more of a race only pulley. For the guy that doesn't mind spending an hour or two doing a pulley swap every time he goes to the track, I'd say that 950-1000 rwhp is attainable with the same basic setup. But now you're talking about running 19 lbs of manifold pressure on stock heads, which probably would not make your bone stock longblock happy for the long term.
Man you guys sure are defensive... I haven't made anyone look bad or any false accusations what so ever.
Just merely asking... If I put a set of heads on my car, I expect a substantial HP increase from it.
And to me paying ~$20grr for a 900hp blower car is extremely different than what was originally stated.
How about this, we'll keep it simple. If you don't work for underground, or own one of the cars in question, muzzle yourself and let the guys who own something involved do the talking.
db (or should I say _____ ___), I stated in another thread that I was less concerned about proving UGR's 900 rwhp claim, and more concerned with having my car done efficiently. It made absolutely no sense to have the blower package installed and tuned on the car, then have the car return to UGR later this year (or next) for a set of heads, or a cam, ported intake, etc.. I will emphasize, and pay close attention, at no time did Kevin @ UGR push a set of heads on me. I actually called Kevin to discuss putting heads on the car when I caught wind of a set of Fox Lakes floating around that might be available for a good price. Kevin informed me that those particular heads were not available, but that if I wanted to do a set of head, I could get a set of JM's off the shelf and he could have them in a few days. I thought about it for a couple of days, and decided to go that route.
That being said, the car made (and I posted the dyno graphs in another thread) 922 rwhp SAE and 951 rwhp uncorrected. That was with a set of 3.55's in it and on the current, safe street tune. What I have always thought is that a set of shorter gears in the car will decrease the dyno reading. In this case, perhaps 3-4%. Add to that the non-aggressive tune on the car, and there is probably more rwhp to be found in more timing. I have my Cobra at JDM in Freehold, and may speak with Jim Sr. about throwing it on the dyno at their shop in the next few weeks. I would not be surprised to see it put down ~950 rwhp SAE (a bit higher if corrected to STD). From my discussions with Kevin, before the car was even touched, he told me that the JM's would be worth about 30-40 rwhp at peak, but would definitely show more power under the curve over a set of stock, untouched castings.
I'll also seize on a minor detail...
Kevin did not state whether the hp numbers for this package would be corrected or SAE (or STD, for that matter). He stated in "cool conditions".
I think if I get my car on the dyno, with the 3.07's that are now in it, and it makes 950-960 rwhp corrected, we can eliminate the doubt and the bickering about UGR's claim. UGR actually put the car back on the dyno after the 3.07's went in it, however, it was a 20-degree day, and Kevin told me they couldn't get it to hook over 4k. He also told me they overlaid the corrected graph from those attempted pulls with the 950 rwhp uncorrected graph, and it made more power until it started spinning the tires.
Is the same microscope going to be focused on CPE if they ever post dyno results for a side mount TT setup on a forged car and it fails to hit 900 rwhp?
S.
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'98 GTS, red...blown...not built by a furniture moving man in a wood-frame garage...
