This is just my .02. If PL were as great an engine builder as you people think they are why did they not tell UGR to stick it in there ass. Any engine builder that is that awesome does not have to worry about 30 (hahahaha) engines a year coming from one source. If I were looking to have an engine built and contacted them and they told me that I had to call UGR to get it done that would have been the end for me. THERE IS NOTHING HARD ABOUT BUILDING A SHORT BLOCK. You have now idea how many people have come to me to have some work done to there car and told me they can get it done elsewhere for half the money. My response to them is they probably should have the work done there then. I also tell them that when they bring me the car to be fixed it will cost them twice what I originally told them it would be. Have lost a few but have also had to fix some of the ones that walked away.
[quote=JohnnyBravo;959864]Wow. That was a hell of an outstanding critique of my analogy. "Retarded. Not even close." You must have spent all night on that. Your insight is breathtaking. I'm simply amazed at your analysis. Oh wait, you didn't give any.
Ok fucktwit - let me break it down into smaller pieces so you can understand it.
Riddle me this: If building motors is such a no-brainer, and it doesn't require any kind of expertise, then what difference does it make if Pro-Line rebuilds Joseph's busted piece of shit or Fred's machine shop does it?
A couple reasons. A - he's been doing business with this company for years. B - Proximity - they're close. C- not all machine shops have a line bore capable of handling such a long motor. PM me me if you need me to explain to you what this means.
Exclusive is exclusive. UGR has an arrangement that doesn't allow Pro-Line to outsource on Viper motors. That's pretty simple.
A - I guess its either a new agreement or they have only just started to "enforce" such an agreement. I would add also that it is a selective agreement.
Valentine 1 doesn't let the customer walk into the electronics factory and buy the sensors, boards, chips, and cases for their radar detectors and assemble them at home. They buy the parts, they have them assembled and they market them...at a profit. Period.
Lets take the analogy further - if you had been buying from the same supplier as "Valentine" for years and someone else tried to strong arm your company out - it would likely be viewed as predatory by a court of law. Get it? PM me if I need to explain it to you further. Additionally - this is a shop MANY folks have used that UGR happened to get wind of...
If Pro-Line is willing to deal with UGR exclusively, then that's their business.
Agreed - but what does it say when they abandon their old customers? What does it say about them when they are still taking in work, sitting on the shit, and then change their mind?
Joseph is butt hurt because he fucked up his motor AGAIN. He was hoping the guys at Pro-Line would help him out AGAIN. Unfortunately, because of an arms length agreement with a larger supplier, they can't or won't. So what? How does that make UGR a bad company? If Pro-Line was willing to accept the terms of the deal, then it must have made good business sense for both parties.
He's probably bent because his shit has been shitting there waiting to get worked on and they come up with this new bullshit.
Real estate agents have "exclusive" listing agreements. Nobody else can sell your house while it's listed with them. And guess what? They charge you for it. Clothing manufacturers work out "exclusive" distributorships with department stores all the time so that there is only one place where you can buy their clothes. It's not like this is a new concept.
If you quoting the real estate agent market as your golden example your even more fucked than I realized. Again let me recap - previous customer - taking in work, sitting on working, waffling. Need I say more?
WAR MY NAME IS BRAVO AND LIKE TO TALK SHIT ABOUT SHIT I KNOW NOTHING OF.
Not even close to broke...just getting ready to break some dynos. Most powerful car in the 10s ever!!!
jk Joseph!
Thats because making huge power and knowing how to set the car up front to back (beyond minor chassis mods) to get it down the track are two different things. Which is why that 7.98/W 6 speed record will stand for quite sometime until someone learns what UGR already knows.
If I understand this correctly, if UGR let Joseph finish his engine work with Pro Line then there would be no issues.
I was not involved in smearing Kevin's name on his felony charges. And you make it sound like I made him light the fire(s). get over yourself. This 'campaign' that you speak of is a figment of your imagination. And if you'd read the original emails (Kevin has them all b/c I sent them to him) that is clear as glass.
Let's reminisce...
Do you remember sending me messages about looking for another builder b/c you were so pissed off that UGR f*cked up your stuff? You were looking for a TT solution and you were considering Paolo's set-up. That was before UGR fixed the bad ground that was from the old VEC set-up causing your AEM to act funny. you were sooooo mad at UGR that you had some unkind things to say. I don't blame you. I'd have been mad too.
The fact that I sent Paolo a private note RE: Kevin's record doesn't equal smearing. i never posted nor spoke of it. It wasn't my business. And I asked Paolo to do the same. As far as I know, he never did. Actually, I remember Kevin posting about it first! The fact that Paolo and Kevin hate each other correction used to hate each other (see VCA thread) is what that was about.
Actually, I used ProLine before Kevin did for something else. b/c some other local viper owners had gone there. The fact that I put two and two together was a nice thing at the time.
do you remember that PL didn't have a torque-plate so they had to borrow one from a local viper owner? yeah... those were the days. people liked each other and you weren't 100% drinking the kool-aide.
you make it sound like it is bad that i break my own sh*t. And also that Kevin hasn't broken sh*t. how about roof's car that spun a main first time down the track w/ the auto? WHO CARES THAT IT BROKE? I don't. if you don't break you don't learn. There are plenty of other breakages but WHO CARES?!?!?
Oh wait: If a DIY guy breaks then it is bad, but if a 'tuner' breaks then it's ok b/c they were just pushing the limits.
Since it was a good business decision on UGR's part, i'm sure they considered the ramifications of forcing a builder to turn away existing customers and that the fallout from that would be minimal. Which I'm sure it will be because this felon's reputation precedes him. And he has more nutswingers than Hillary has supporters on this forum. So everything will be alright.
But I know of at least 5 customers who were thinking about going UGR but went with a _different_ vendor. That's gotta hurt. I'd be mad too. And if 5 more go elsewhere, then that'll hurt too.
sucks for UGR.
*sniff*
My heart goes out to 'em all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2MANYTOYS
Joe you were involved in the smearing of Kevin's name. You got the emails from Wendy Macedo and then passed them out to your friends. Palo then threatened Kevin with posting them. That's the bottom line and the truth. Do you remember sending me a PM a few years ago saying " I found out who Kevin uses to build his engines" and then saying "you were going to talk to them about doing some work for you" you were excited that they were in Atlanta so close to you. Kevin used them long before you came in contact with them. He also sends them lots of business. It was a GOOD business decision on his part. Why not find another engine builder and get your shit fixed??? You could get bigredsrt to help you out. Your post heading insinuates that UR built a bad car for you. You only did this to try and hurt their business. You know, you do break a lot of motors maybe Proline should reconsider.
This is just my .02. If PL were as great an engine builder as you people think they are why did they not tell UGR to stick it in there ass. Any engine builder that is that awesome does not have to worry about 30 (hahahaha) engines a year coming from one source. If I were looking to have an engine built and contacted them and they told me that I had to call UGR to get it done that would have been the end for me. THERE IS NOTHING HARD ABOUT BUILDING A SHORT BLOCK. You have now idea how many people have come to me to have some work done to there car and told me they can get it done elsewhere for half the money. My response to them is they probably should have the work done there then. I also tell them that when they bring me the car to be fixed it will cost them twice what I originally told them it would be. Have lost a few but have also had to fix some of the ones that walked away.
The restriction is only specific to viper motors, not other brands.
How many viper motors do you think they were getting in per year? If they had a chance to be the exclusive builder for a vendor who does a large quantity of viper motors per year, why wouldn't they jump at the chance? The odds are that they would make more money being the exclusive builder with a restriction in a contract versus the lost income from having to turn away a few outside viper motors due to the agreement.
Kevin I wouldn't let this crap bother you too much. The people who buy into the lies and decide to avoid your company are screwing themselves not you. Your long list of satisfied customers speaks much more credibly than those sniping from the outside.
LOL! Shelby3 = No Man. It's finally proven again! Shelby3=No Man = Jim H. This logic is due to this IDENTICAL post being on the VCA board, verbatim. And we all know Shelby3 = Jim H...
The restriction is only specific to viper motors, not other brands.
How many viper motors do you think they were getting in per year? If they had a chance to be the exclusive builder for a vendor who does a large quantity of viper motors per year, why wouldn't they jump at the chance? The odds are that they would make more money being the exclusive builder with a restriction in a contract versus the lost income from having to turn away a few outside viper motors due to the agreement.
economics 101. And I don't take issue with that. I'd do the same and I'm glad that they are getting the business.
Kevin being a dickhead about it is another story. He acknowledges that he had/has the option and instead of being a live-and-let-live guy which is what I thought he and I were, he opted to be an asshole. And now you all know it. The nutswingers won't care but those who were borderline will know that UGR's attitude is very black-and-white: If you aren't 100% with them, you are against them. In this case, i'm being made out to be on a smear campaign for some unknown reason.
Joseph's engine is one that Pro Line built a while back, and now it needs servicing. The ring seal went away, for whatever reason, Joseph wants them to do their magic on it (sounds reasonable to me), and Pro Line won't touch it now. Their choice. Not judging them on it. If it were me though, there's no way I'd turn my back on a customer. It's not like Joseph wants a complete new engine built, just one fixed that they've already had their hands on.
In the end, not a problem though. There a LOTS of guys around that can do good machine work.
If I were Joseph I'd be glad to get away from all the drama.
Sorry that Phil got cought up in all of this though. Doesn't seem fair to him.
Wow. That was a hell of an outstanding critique of my analogy. "Retarded. Not even close." You must have spent all night on that. Your insight is breathtaking. I'm simply amazed at your analysis. Oh wait, you didn't give any.
Ok fucktwit - let me break it down into smaller pieces so you can understand it.
Riddle me this: If building motors is such a no-brainer, and it doesn't require any kind of expertise, then what difference does it make if Pro-Line rebuilds Joseph's busted piece of shit or Fred's machine shop does it?
A couple reasons. A - he's been doing business with this company for years. B - Proximity - they're close. C- not all machine shops have a line bore capable of handling such a long motor. PM me me if you need me to explain to you what this means.
Exclusive is exclusive. UGR has an arrangement that doesn't allow Pro-Line to outsource on Viper motors. That's pretty simple.
A - I guess its either a new agreement or they have only just started to "enforce" such an agreement. I would add also that it is a selective agreement.
Valentine 1 doesn't let the customer walk into the electronics factory and buy the sensors, boards, chips, and cases for their radar detectors and assemble them at home. They buy the parts, they have them assembled and they market them...at a profit. Period.
You are seriously a stupid motherfucker. Lets take the analogy further - if you had been buying from the same supplier as "Valentine" for years and someone else tried to strong arm your company out - it would likely be viewed as predatory by a court of law. Get it? PM me if I need to explain it to you further. Additionally - this is a shop MANY folks have used that UGR happened to get wind of...
If Pro-Line is willing to deal with UGR exclusively, then that's their business.
Agreed - but what does it say when they abandon their old customers? What does it say about them when they are still taking in work, sitting on the shit, and then change their mind?
Joseph is butt hurt because he fucked up his motor AGAIN. He was hoping the guys at Pro-Line would help him out AGAIN. Unfortunately, because of an arms length agreement with a larger supplier, they can't or won't. So what? How does that make UGR a bad company? If Pro-Line was willing to accept the terms of the deal, then it must have made good business sense for both parties.
Read above.
Real estate agents have "exclusive" listing agreements. Nobody else can sell your house while it's listed with them. And guess what? They charge you for it. Clothing manufacturers work out "exclusive" distributorships with department stores all the time so that there is only one place where you can buy their clothes. It's not like this is a new concept.
If you quoting the real estate agent market as your golden example your even more fucked than I realized. Again let me recap - previous customer - taking in work, sitting on working, waffling. Need I say more?
WAR MY NAME IS BRAVO AND LIKE TO TALK SHIT ABOUT SHIT I KNOW NOTHING OF.
You are a complete fucking imbecile. Let me start with that.
Then, allow me to laugh at the fact that JID "has been doing business with Pro-Line for years". All that tells me is that he has probably broken more engines than anyone else. Not exactly something I'd brag about. How much lash do you put in a solid lifter setup anyway?
Next, you tell us that Pro-Line has a special line bore capable of handling a longer motor. So now maybe there IS a reason why Joseph wants to use Pro-Line, in particular? Then I guess that means that not just any jackass can build a Viper motor, as he and others have implied. Which would, of course, make them a desired engine builder for a particular tuner. Thank you for proving my point.
Furthermore, we can agree that Pro-Line and UGR are free to enter into whatever contractual relationships they want. This is still a free country. They chose to enter into an exclusive arrangement. Pro-Line is now enforcing that exclusive agreement. Nothing criminal or illegal there. So far, you've said a lot but haven't proven anything. Not uncommon for the average douchebag.
Please identify for me a case in the state court of North Carolina (or a federal district court in North Carolina) that has ruled that an exclusive contractual agreement has been deemed "predatory". You can't. You can't even show me where any court in the fucking country would declare that simple arms length agreement a violation of any anti-trust laws or a violation of public policy relating to monopolies. After all, any jackass can build an engine, so this little itsy bitsy agreement can't be that big of a deal, right? And where did the word "strong arm" come from? Did someone threaten Pro-Line with physical violence? Was there a threat of blackmail? Was someone kidnapped and held for ransom until the agreement was signed? No. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Even if UGR did threaten to stop sending 30 motors/year to Pro-Line if Pro-Line did outside work, Pro-Line could have told them to go fuck themselves if it wasn't a good deal for them. But they didn't, did they? They told JID to go fuck himself. I fail to see the crime or the civil rights violation or any discrimination here, Gloria Allred.
Finally, you had nothing to say about either of my other analogies other than "I'm fucked". More brilliant deductive reasoning, Mr. Holmes. You're a fucking dimwit who hasn't made a valid point ONCE in this discussion. I still fail to see any wrongdoing by either party in this transaction.
JID's business is apparently not all that important to UGR or Pro-Line. That's their decision. Being a whiny pussy about it and posting it all over the internet was JID's decision. Trying to act like you know what you're talking about, but making yourself look like a bigger asshat was your decision.
Last time I checked, this was still a market driven economy. Pro-Line and UGR have made their business decisions and they apparently don't include JID. Tough shit.
Joseph's engine is one that Pro Line built a while back, and now it needs servicing. The ring seal went away, for whatever reason, Joseph wants them to do their magic on it (sounds reasonable to me), and Pro Line won't touch it now. Their choice. Not judging them on it. If it were me though, there's no way I'd turn my back on a customer. It's not like Joseph wants a complete new engine built, just one fixed that they've already had their hands on.
In the end, not a problem though. There a LOTS of guys around that can do good machine work.
If I were Joseph I'd be glad to get away from all the drama.
Sorry that Phil got cought up in all of this though. Doesn't seem fair to him.
Proline would possibly have the same attitude about helping out a past customer as you do. However, their attitude doesnt matter. It doesnt matter how sweet, nice, and generous they may be. There is a point where business is business and if they are in agreement with UGR... that is that. It is outside of their control.
Proline would possibly have the same attitude about helping out a past customer as you do. However, their attitude doesnt matter. It doesnt matter how sweet, nice, and generous they may be. There is a point where business is business and if they are in agreement with UGR... that is that. It is outside of their control.
Pro Line refusing to work on an engine that they previously built is fine with me. Like I said, there are LOTS of good machinists around, a dime a dozen almost, and any self respecting machine shop already has line boring setups and Sunnen line hones that will get the job done. No skin off my back.
My friends in Charlotte at the various Cup teams say that there are waiting lists of machinists wanting in there.
Proline would possibly have the same attitude about helping out a past customer as you do. However, their attitude doesnt matter. It doesnt matter how sweet, nice, and generous they may be. There is a point where business is business and if they are in agreement with UGR... that is that. It is outside of their control.
You are 100% correct. But this isn't (or shouldn't be) about PL. This should and is about the way that Kevin decided to give it to me in the @ss. If he wanted a non-drama-filled solution, he should have and could have called me. He and I could have worked something out. He's got my #. Not like we haven't spoken or emailed. And not like this 'pending' issue hasn't been pending for weeks. Instead of being a man about it, he chose to let PL be the bad guy to tell me that I can't have my motor done there. I even called Kevin to discuss it... But no answer and no call back. Passive aggressive. and weak.
This is a good way and a bad way to tell a customer to fuck off. But in this case, Kevin wanted me to know that he was boss/king/whatever. Well, I know it. And so do all of you. And you all also know that he won't hesitate to stick it to someone when he can. Yes Kevin, you won this one. You delayed my motor build. I hope you feel good about it.
details.
As much as I'd love to stay up late to perpetuate this drama, the rest of y'all are doing just fine without me. enjoy!
The thing that sticks out as being flaky is the time frame. If Pro Line could not work on your engine they probably should have stated so a month ago, instead of letting it sit on a question mark this whole time.
"PROFIT" is not a bad word. In fact, it is one of my favorite. The better your work, the more you can charge. Simple. Picking and choosing who you let slide on a contract may make some upset, but thats life and thats their choice.
Here is something for you all to think about. JID takes his motor to PL they build it and he blows it up you all laugh at JID. It is PL's motor that blew up. UGR takes a motor to PL and they build it, UGR doesn't blow it up and you all brag about how great UGR is. It is PL's motor that didn't blow up. If you don't see that as nutswinging what is?
PL is a motor assembling business. That is what they do. They may be great I don't know. Name me one other big name engine builder that is exclusive with someone. Hell even the nascar teams rent motors to the competition. Why because they know they are great.
I have to say kudos to UGR in making the deal with PL that is a compliment to them.
