silvergts: when you personally have used the Weldon, what do you prefer to do for a pickup?
I dont personally have tons of experience with weldon, but I would be curious how well they hold up under fuel pressure surges. I know that the intank pumps dont take starvation very well and will wear out quickly, but I never really use the externals when building, just serviced cars that already had them.
The factory pump assembly utilizes a surge canister inside the tank as an alternative to having any baffles in the tank at all. I would figure that once you go to external pump you probably kill the function of that surge canister, and then at lower tank levels you would be operating at pretty high risk of losing pressure, no?
not that it matters here really, but we build twin intank pump assemblies that utilize a surge canister and siphons to pull fuel into the can in attempt to maintain stable pressure at lower tank levels as OEM like as possible... of course there is a point where you're out of luck if you run the tank low enough. We actually built a viper prototype over a year ago but never tested it
sorry if im running my mouth, just personally into fuel system design and its xmas eve = bored as hell. heres one we make for the 350z/G35
Last edited by phunk; December 24th, 2007 at 02:25 PM.
Well with externals I have always sumped the tank to keep the pump from running out of fuel. I want to steer clear of this becouse I dont want to hack up my vipers tank.
I was thinking multiple pumps in the tank like you suggested but how would you know one has died untill its to late and you now need an engine?
Well with externals I have always sumped the tank to keep the pump from running out of fuel. I want to steer clear of this becouse I dont want to hack up my vipers tank.
I was thinking multiple pumps in the tank like you suggested but how would you know one has died untill its to late and you now need an engine?
you are absolutely right, and that is why we always tell our customers to stick with a single pump unless they absolutely need more than one. unfortunately things like this are what you have to deal with when building a 1000hp car out of a 500hp car.
Ultimately, if you dont mind the extra complications, the ideal solution IMHO would be this;
An external surge can. Its the endall solution but it is the most complex and expensive. You run your stock pump or upgrade the intank and run it to feed a surge can. This keeps everything inside the tank setup as well as stock to prevent the intank from starving. You feed it into the external surge canister that has an overflow that runs back to the OEM pump assembly intank surge can. When you do this, you have taken the pressure out of the intanks equation and its flow capacity will skyrocket as its load has significantly dropped. And then of course, you use a larger external pump that draws from the external surge can and feeds the rails, with a return line goign back into the external surge can, which once again will overflow back to the tank when the external surge can is full.
This is the ultimate setup in terms of fuel control and preventing the engine from starving on the road course and lower tank levels.
I had the Aeromotive Eliminator (the silver one) on my last car. Without the dial-a-flow, it was worthless in the Texas heat....especially with a 1/4 tank of gas or less. I was stranded more than once due to cavitation. On my current car, I had Heffner replace the external with 3 in-tank pumps. It is quiet, as you barely can hear them when you turn the key. And you cannot hear them at all, with the car at idle.
I had the Aeromotive Eliminator (the silver one) on my last car. Without the dial-a-flow, it was worthless in the Texas heat....especially with a 1/4 tank of gas or less. I was stranded more than once due to cavitation. On my current car, I had Heffner replace the external with 3 in-tank pumps. It is quiet, as you barely can hear them when you turn the key. And you cannot hear them at all, with the car at idle.
I have seen the multi intank setups that I think people are using in vipers so far, and I havent seen any with a surge tank or fill siphons. Of course, there could be more than I have seen.
Do you have any issues running your car hard at less than a half tank of gas? I ask because the viper tanks are wide open, with no baffles or anything attempting to control the placement of the fuel within the tank... I would think that just hanging some pumps in there would cause starvation issues below a half when when getting on the throttle very hard or turning hard.
How has yours been?
I am so curious because like I said we made a Viper prototype last year... if everything out there is currently working and making everyone super happy, we wont bother to do anything with it since its such a small market... but if there is room for a unit with more features we would consider testing the one we made and seeing what happens.
Is there a way of having all of the pumps shut off if one dies out on you? I mean walbros are not the most realiable pumps out there. I would do supra pumps if I had a choice.
Well with externals I have always sumped the tank to keep the pump from running out of fuel. I want to steer clear of this becouse I dont want to hack up my vipers tank.
I was thinking multiple pumps in the tank like you suggested but how would you know one has died untill its to late and you now need an engine?
Yet another reason to have a WB display running and keep your eye on it now and then :-) I am going to two pumps now (Walbro+stock), but even though I am making serious power, I am not at 1000 yet and won't be until I pull the Roe even with all the mods....
Well with externals I have always sumped the tank to keep the pump from running out of fuel. I want to steer clear of this becouse I dont want to hack up my vipers tank.
I was thinking multiple pumps in the tank like you suggested but how would you know one has died untill its to late and you now need an engine?
I have often wondered the same thing about the multiple pump setup losing one of the pumps.
While highly unlikely, it is certainly within the realm of possibilities.
I have recently undertaken the task of R&D for a pulse width modulated, 1800 HP fuel pump to be installed in the tank.
In simple terms, it is a monster pump like a Weldon, but it can be pulsed on and off like a fuel injector to deliver just what is needed without running at high speed all the time.
We are working on being able to run the pump off the injector duty cycle map thereby mirroring the fuel requirements for fuel pump output real time.
The quality of this product is at least as good as if not better than the Weldon product I have run in the past.
The benefits include:
1. One pump that has Pulse width modulating mechanism built in(No need for external controller)
2. Infinitely variable amount of fuel delivery with PWM technology(No more heating up the fuel with pump running full blast)
3. Pump mounted in the tank cooled by the fuel for longevity
4. Comes with beautiful in tank mounting hardware
5. Comes with machined lid and capacity for fuel vent tube if needed
I think this is a good compromise between the previously widely used external pumps and the current trend of the dual /triple in-tank setups that might be difficult to monitor if one pump goes bad or starts to go bad.
I think this is a good compromise between the previously widely used external pumps and the current trend of the dual /triple in-tank setups that might be difficult to monitor if one pump goes bad or starts to go bad.
Unless you're running the tank bone dry, or running exceedingly high rail pressures, isn't it very uncommon for an in-tank pump to fail?
Unless you're running the tank bone dry, or running exceedingly high rail pressures, isn't it very uncommon for an in-tank pump to fail?
How loud is this pump that you are working on?
S.
I had a dual pump setup on my 3rd gen RX7 and one of the walbros failed on me in less than 1000 miles. Lucky me I noticed there was a change in the sound from the tank so I check and sure as crap one was dead. I then switched to 2 denso supra pumps which are stock and have not had a problem with.
I would think you wouldnt run high rail pressure at idol and like paolo said it will mirror injector duty so when the duty goes up the pump will start spinning faster. As long as there is a low laying pick up I dont think paolo's setup would have any more fuel starvation issues than the dual or triple pump setups.
I have often wondered the same thing about the multiple pump setup losing one of the pumps.
While highly unlikely, it is certainly within the realm of possibilities.
I have recently undertaken the task of R&D for a pulse width modulated, 1800 HP fuel pump to be installed in the tank.
In simple terms, it is a monster pump like a Weldon, but it can be pulsed on and off like a fuel injector to deliver just what is needed without running at high speed all the time.
We are working on being able to run the pump off the injector duty cycle map thereby mirroring the fuel requirements for fuel pump output real time.
The quality of this product is at least as good as if not better than the Weldon product I have run in the past.
The benefits include:
1. One pump that has Pulse width modulating mechanism built in(No need for external controller)
2. Infinitely variable amount of fuel delivery with PWM technology(No more heating up the fuel with pump running full blast)
3. Pump mounted in the tank cooled by the fuel for longevity
4. Comes with beautiful in tank mounting hardware
5. Comes with machined lid and capacity for fuel vent tube if needed
I think this is a good compromise between the previously widely used external pumps and the current trend of the dual /triple in-tank setups that might be difficult to monitor if one pump goes bad or starts to go bad.
I would really like to see what you come up with when its all finished. Also with the 1 to 1 fuel pressure reg's how will the pump know when to pump the pressure when it see's boost? I am also interested in your turbo setup once my engine is back together.
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and Merry X-Mas 
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