Liquid Venom back in progress. But still got oil issues. Help from the gurus!
Hey so i got new cartridge for the T4 p trim 57 trim turbos and installed it. So that eliminates the idea that I possibly had a bad turbo.
However still getting same issues. I took off the exhaust dump pipes to fully inspect if oil going past the turbo seals and let the oil drain into a bucket. Oil is still bleading out of the exhaust from these new turbos.
I have a .065 restrictor at the Tee fitting of the oil sender unit. I measued 1 liter of oil on each turbo timed for a minute.
This leads me to believe oil is still going past the seals with a .065 restrictor. I am wondering if I should an even smaller restrictor like a .035 restrictor like those used on the ball bearing turbos.
What are your guys thoughts? I figure someone that built turbo kits for vipers would probably know that answer.
Are you using a scavenge pump for the return oil? Go with a smaller restrictor, and make sure the pump (if using one) is plumbed the right way for the flow. Also, you might want to make sure that the oil drain is not being blocked, and is properly sized.
-Tim
Put catch cans underneath each turbo, and use two pumps, one for each.
Also locate the .065 restrictor at the inlet of each turbo, not at the "T" off the pressure sending unit.
Make sure you use a -10 for each turbo drain, and -8 out of each pump into the oil pan.
The above should work, unless you got some out of spec turbos. get them looked at by a reputable turbo shop.
Last edited by V10TT : December 25th, 2007 at 12:00 PM.
I am running dual scavenge pumps with -10 an drain all the way to oil pumps and also to pan. Im actually running 3 restrictors. 1 at each turbo and 1 at the Tee fitting. .065.
I did put a measuring bucket underneath each turbo and disconnected the oil drain lines to eliminate the oil pumps as an issue. Started the engine for 1 minute so the oil from the turbo drain into a measuring bucket. Each turbo recieved 1 liter of oil into the bucket after 1 minute of ideling. The oil still bleads out of of the turbine wheels while freely being gravity drained into a dump off bucket. I know this b/c i even took off the exhaust dump pipes to visually see the turbine wheel. Had to use ear muffs as it was getting loud So lets take the oil pumps out of the equation for right now.
But ya i thought .065 restrictor would do the trick it appears it needs to be restricted down more. Its a garrett turbo the best turbo manufactures out there so I don't know if this turbo is any different or anymore sensitive to oil pressure then the others. The turbo is a little different b/c its a T4 p trim 57 trim. Most 57 trims are t3t/t4 setups.
Give ATP a Call. IMO if you have them draining free into a bucket, and you still have restrictors on them, oil should not pass the seals unless something in the turbo is out of specidfication. If both are leaking, and you are getting a liter per minute out of each (which is about .25 GPM) I don't think you are getting too much oil. A smalller restrictor should not be required, and migh be a bad idea. I would remove the .065 at the "t", and just leave the ones at the turbo inlets.
Do a search over at turbomustangs.com, and see what help you get. The non BB I've seen use a -3, or a -4 supply line to each turbo, with a .60 or greater restrictor. Some run a -3 line with no restrcitor at all.
You are having problems at iddle, with an open system...imagine at WOT. Did ATP rebuilt your turbos?
Give ATP a Call. IMO if you have them draining free into a bucket, and you still have restrictors on them, oil should not pass the seals unless something in the turbo is out of specidfication. If both are leaking, and you are getting a liter per minute out of each (which is about .25 GPM) I don't think you are getting too much oil. A smalller restrictor should not be required, and migh be a bad idea. I would remove the .065 at the "t", and just leave the ones at the turbo inlets.
Do a search over at turbomustangs.com, and see what help you get. The non BB I've seen use a -3, or a -4 supply line to each turbo, with a .60 or greater restrictor. Some run a -3 line with no restrcitor at all.
You are having problems at iddle, with an open system...imagine at WOT. Did ATP rebuilt your turbos?
Atp turbo doesn't do any rebuilds. I ordered new center cartridges from them so they are practically brand new turbos from garrett. Thanks for the advice V10TT.
Alright I did little bit of interesting research. The turbo garrett catalogs states that if you have above 40 psi of oil pressure a restrictor is needed. That is the case with the vipr they get about 45 psi at idle. doesn't say what size restrictor or etc.
From maxmum boost corky Bell he states these interesting facts.
Restrictor: a 0.055-0.065" orifice in the turbo oil feed line. He recommends installing a pressure gauge downstream of the restrictor to prove there is adequate pressure at the turbo.
Actual oiling requirements (for almost all turbos he says): at hot idle the turbo needs 5 psi and 0.1 gpm. At maximum load it needs 25 psi and 0.5 gpm.
If Corkey Bell information is correct I have .25 gpm on a warm idle. which is double the amount of what is needed for idle. Psi is unknown not sure how much the .065 restrictor drops the psi amount by. I will be using a oil pressure guage after restrictor to find out. I also have an adjustable pressure reducing valve so i can control the psi and oil flow to my desire.
As for WOT thats a little harder to test I guess i can just rev up the engine high for 1 minute and see how much oil is flowing out.
I still say something is bad with your turbos. Guys here run those restrictorson non BB turbos, or a -3 line with no restrictors and turbos drain fine by gravity. If you had oil blowing through the seals with the pumps hooked up, there could be other posibilities.
Restricting the oil even more might not cure the problem, and might hurt the Turbos.
BUT since you are having both turbos smoking with both draining to a bucket (for testing purposes), in my opinion the problem is in the turbos.
I got my turbos from Turbos Direct. They are a Garret distributor, and they also repair turbos. Mine are not BB, and came with a .072 restrictor on each turbo.
I'm not a turbo expert, and have never fixed them, but I was under the impression anytime you have a turbo go bad, you send it back to the experts to fix, check, and rebalance.
andy, did you pull the chra appart to check to see if the seals went away? i cant imagine that low of pressure blowing oil out the seals. is there any shaft play? (in and out) side to side is okay (very tiny bit) but if there is any end to end, turbo is dead.
andy, did you pull the chra appart to check to see if the seals went away? i cant imagine that low of pressure blowing oil out the seals. is there any shaft play? (in and out) side to side is okay (very tiny bit) but if there is any end to end, turbo is dead.
I have not pulled the chra apart to check the seals yet. I will do it on the first pair that I ran without oil for 2 minutes. These are already pulled out so all i gota do is get a inch pound torque wrench. I don't see any reason to do it on the 2nd pair of chra since I just got them last week brand new, ran them correctly with oil, and even these brand new ones are having the same symtoms as the first pair. This leads me to believe 1st and 2nd pair are having the same oil pressure sensitivity issues.
The side to side and end to end shaft play is just like a new turbo. very tiny and within spec. They are new turbos so I don't see why it would have shaft play. Even the 1st pair has no shaft or end play.
Both pairs were new. Its hard for me to believe garrett would have a bad batch of turbos. These aren't china turbos they are garrett made in the usa with high tolerence specs. but i guess you never know. If anything maybe these turbos are more sensitive to oil pressure. Being bad straight out of the factory from garrett is very uncommon.
are you sure its a .065? i would test the psi asap as its the only thing i can see pushing oil past 2 brand new sets of seals. that is if the turbos were built correctly to start. post updates. interesting thread
are you sure its a .065? i would test the psi asap as its the only thing i can see pushing oil past 2 brand new sets of seals. that is if the turbos were built correctly to start. post updates. interesting thread
did you put check valves before and after the turbos? If not you are getting oil build up when you shut the motor off and all the oil drains to the lowest point (the turbo)
did you put check valves before and after the turbos? If not you are getting oil build up when you shut the motor off and all the oil drains to the lowest point (the turbo)
Well I plan on putting check valves in after the turbo eventually. But I gota take care of one issue at a time b/c right now i have a bigger issue with oil going past the seals with oil being dumped into a bucket. check valves wont' have anything to do with this issue since oil is being freely dumped into bucket.
I know you've been preaching to put check valves before the turbo. I still don't see why it needs it before turbo, since before the turbo is always under pressure. Oil will never travel above the turbo towards the feed side.
As for putting a check valve after the turbo I can see why. I remember it making a noise simliar to a catalyic converter after I shut down the engine. Then I realizse its b/c the oil is building up after I shut down the engine on the drain line between drain and oil pump since the oil pump is turned off. As for right now, after I shut down the engine, i turn back on igniton on to keep the oil pumps running after engine is shut off so their isn't any oil buldup in the drain lines. This is just my temporarly method in the meantime.
I do plan to run a turbo timer or check valve eventually.
