How about some pics oof your............... uuhh............. l o g ...........?
P.S. I was not able to contact your agent to confirm permission to post a pic of your awesome burnout in the front mount intercooler portion of this thread.
I want to state at the outset that I am not trying to crap up anyone's thread. I am just looking for some answers to help me decide what to do after I have successfully maxed out my Roe blower car. Nothing more, nothing less. I have no affiliation with either tuner. I just thought this was a good opportunity for some good Q and A and a little Power Adder 101 knowledge for my own edification.
Both of these dyno graphs are based on bone stock motors with stock heads/cam, according to the tuners. Both are running 16 psi of boost (although one is using a supercharger and one is using turbochargers). Both cars are presumably in 4th gear making the pull and both presumably have 3.07 gears so that the MPH comparison will have some meaning.
Given the graphs above:
1. Why does it appear that the blower car makes so much more power down low if there is supposed to be so much more parasitic drag?
Look at the curves at 80 mph. The blower car is at about 450/750 while the TT car is at about 300/450 (+150 rwhp and +300 lb/ft tq). At 100 mph, the blower car is at about 650/825 while the TT car is at about 550/650 (+100 rwhp and +175 lb. ft. tq). At 140, the blower car is at about 900/850 while the TT car is at about 900/800.
By the end of the run, it seems that both cars are making similar power. However, it would appear that the supercharged car makes more power everywhere in the power band. If turbos are more efficient, what explains the difference?
Again, I am just trying to figure out which system will be the next step for me after I pull the twin screw off, so I'm just looking for answers.
2. What effect would having a nice set of ported heads have on either of these dyno graphs? Would ported heads and 1.7 rockers make 50 rwhp difference? 75 rwhp difference? Would they only change the peak number or would it change all of the numbers under the curve?
Forgive me if I made some kind of fundamental mistake in my analysis (which may be the case). I'm just trying to see if I can look at two dyno graphs from two different cars and draw any kind of conclusion.
Having built up a car from bone-stock to the ultimate in non-stock, I have a hard time believing that the UGR graph is of a BONE STOCK car.
I had a nice set of ported heads on a well built motor by a well respected tuner and my graph looked like that. and w/o the heads, the graph (even on the blower car) made much less tq and hp down low.
Boost Almighty's car is a better example of a power curve on a stock paxton set-up. But his car didn't make that power.
Having built up a car from bone-stock to the ultimate in non-stock, I have a hard time believing that the UGR graph is of a BONE STOCK car.
I had a nice set of ported heads on a well built motor by a well respected tuner and my graph looked like that. and w/o the heads, the graph (even on the blower car) made much less tq and hp down low.
Boost Almighty's car is a better example of a power curve on a stock paxton set-up. But his car didn't make that power.
I guess i'm the one to call BS on this one.
Looks like complete BS to me.
JD
After reading the post by 1MEANSNAKE, I'm even more confused. He said when he sent his bone stock car to UGR for a Paxton SC, it made 628 rwhp. After he had the AEM installed, the fuel system installed, the boost raised AND added heads/cam, headers, rockers, etc........THEN it made 875 rwhp.
Maybe these questions should be in UGR's thread. But why did BLOWNGTS's car make 900+ RWHP bone stock when IMEANSNAKE's only made 875 rwhp with heads, cam, headers, etc, etc? Something doesn't add up.
I'm not to the point of calling BS on anyone. I just want to figure out what I'm really going to get for $15k, regardless of whose name is on that check.
After reading the post by 1MEANSNAKE, I'm even more confused. He said when he sent his bone stock car to UGR for a Paxton SC, it made 628 rwhp. After he had the AEM installed, the fuel system installed, the boost raised AND added heads/cam, headers, rockers, etc........THEN it made 875 rwhp.
Maybe these questions should be in UGR's thread. But why did BLOWNGTS's car make 900+ RWHP bone stock when IMEANSNAKE's only made 875 rwhp with heads, cam, headers, etc, etc? Something doesn't add up.
I'm not to the point of calling BS on anyone. I just want to figure out what I'm really going to get for $15k, regardless of whose name is on that check.
Cars with stock heads and stock exhaust are good for ~700rwhp with a paxton and around 800rwhp with a TT. of course some of these limits can be pushed a little harder but the physics of the stock heads mean that you need to flow a LOT of pressure and air to make that kind of power. Even on the CPE TT, the hp-per-lb-of-boost goes down as you get up there. now with a TT you have the capacity to flow more and more air. with the paxton which only flows 1000cfm, you don't. which is why i never saw more than 16psi on my paxton car. ever. no matter how hard i tried. the paxton just couldn't flow the air.
After seeing the side mount IC's and front cold air setup it allows - why anyone would go for a single front mount would be hard to comprehend. In a wet climate maybe a splash guard for the filters may be required - but the balance between form and function is as close to perfect as anyone has done IMHO.
As I said to you in the beginning Paolo - the same mindset that took you to the top 10 in the world at your chosen sport - will also take you to the top at whatever you set your mind to see thru to the end. Everyone that has laughed at you because of the learning curve you've gone thru will either change their minds or eat shit - because nobody else in this market can come remotely even close to your obsession for perfection... i.e. they are too busy paying the bills to invest your kind of energy into creativity - or - maybe they just have a life
j.k man - but don't forget about to give that lovely wife of yours a squeeze and some quality time now and again ;-)
Having built up a car from bone-stock to the ultimate in non-stock, I have a hard time believing that the UGR graph is of a BONE STOCK car.
I had a nice set of ported heads on a well built motor by a well respected tuner and my graph looked like that. and w/o the heads, the graph (even on the blower car) made much less tq and hp down low.
Boost Almighty's car is a better example of a power curve on a stock paxton set-up. But his car didn't make that power.
I guess i'm the one to call BS on this one.
Looks like complete BS to me.
JD
JD, you calling bullshit on me is like Stevie Wonder arguing balls and strikes with the home plate umpire at the World Series. You're a notoriously jealous hater who's only record is money spent without running nines.
Ed, I did not want to start anything or hurt anybody's feelings.
I just wanted to take my experience of designing and building Twin Turbo Vipers to finally make an affordable system for the regular guys like myself out there to be able to put food on the table for my family.
This post was to showcase what I have to offer to prospective customers out there who want the best thing they can get for their money like I wanted when I was the customer.
After seeing the side mount IC's and front cold air setup it allows - why anyone would go for a single front mount would be hard to comprehend. In a wet climate maybe a splash guard for the filters may be required - but the balance between form and function is as close to perfect as anyone has done IMHO.
As I said to you in the beginning Paolo - the same mindset that took you to the top 10 in the world at your chosen sport - will also take you to the top at whatever you set your mind to see thru to the end. Everyone that has laughed at you because of the learning curve you've gone thru will either change their minds or eat shit - because nobody else in this market can come remotely even close to your obsession for perfection... i.e. they are too busy paying the bills to invest your kind of energy into creativity - or - maybe they just have a life
j.k man - but don't forget about to give that lovely wife of yours a squeeze and some quality time now and again ;-)
Barry, thank you for all the support you have given me over the years!
I have taken everything you have told me to heart and have tried to do my best with what I've got.
I think sometimes she is happy she is getting slightly less "attention"(Beavis,/yeah/yeah....cool.........) if I am working longer hours.
Cars with stock heads and stock exhaust are good for ~700rwhp with a paxton and around 800rwhp with a TT. of course some of these limits can be pushed a little harder but the physics of the stock heads mean that you need to flow a LOT of pressure and air to make that kind of power. Even on the CPE TT, the hp-per-lb-of-boost goes down as you get up there. now with a TT you have the capacity to flow more and more air. with the paxton which only flows 1000cfm, you don't. which is why i never saw more than 16psi on my paxton car. ever. no matter how hard i tried. the paxton just couldn't flow the air.
JD
I just don't understand how I keep getting involved with arguing with the very person that made me decide I wanted to be a part of the Viper community based on intelligence, willingness to explain pros and cons of setups etc. But again I BEG TO DIFFER I would be happy to meet TOMMOROW and let you tear down my 96 B&W to find ANY upgrades whatsoever in the motor!!!! I watched my car with a boost guage on the dyno @ UGR make 17lbs. of boost with it 98 degrees and 100percent humidity lay down 838 or so RWHP after making 10 driveability pulls without even a 5 min. break!!!!!! and this was with the shit second and 93octane on (at the time 86Kmiles) now 88K never touched motor!!!
You (of ALL people) should know backpressure is the reason for the higher boost level My 2000 model with a fully built motor, Gregg Good GTSR heads, blower cam, headers, Jessell roller rockers, etc. etc. etc. with the same size pulley makes 12lbs. of boost and no more power!!!! BTW I've had 0 issues with belt slip on either car
I just don't understand how I keep getting involved with arguing with the very person that made me decide I wanted to be a part of the Viper community based on intelligence, willingness to explain pros and cons of setups etc. But again I BEG TO DIFFER I would be happy to meet TOMMOROW and let you tear down my 96 B&W to find ANY upgrades whatsoever in the motor!!!! I watched my car with a boost guage on the dyno @ UGR make 17lbs. of boost with it 98 degrees and 100percent humidity lay down 838 or so RWHP after making 10 driveability pulls without even a 5 min. break!!!!!! and this was with the shit second and 93octane on (at the time 86Kmiles) now 88K never touched motor!!!
You (of ALL people) should know backpressure is the reason for the higher boost level My 2000 model with a fully built motor, Gregg Good GTSR heads, blower cam, headers, Jessell roller rockers, etc. etc. etc. with the same size pulley makes 12lbs. of boost and no more power!!!! BTW I've had 0 issues with belt slip on either car
And FWIW my 2000 RT/10 made 857RWHP (but on a cooler day when it was dynoed) and I can say with certainty on any given day at any given time my B&W is without a shadow of a doubt FASTER than the RT which is precisely why the RT is going in for a re tune at UGR
Since this post has hi-jacked to Hell and back I'll put my two cents in:
If someone wants the ultimate blower car.......go to someone like ART or Doug Levin. Period. No one has more experience, knows a fraction of what they know, or cares as much about customer satisfaction as they do.
Turbo applications?....well it looks like Paolo is putting real pressure on name brand TT tuners. Good for him.
My two cents worth.
Greg Good
Last edited by Greg Good Cylinder Heads : September 23rd, 2007 at 01:23 AM.
JD, you calling bullshit on me is like Stevie Wonder arguing balls and strikes with the home plate umpire at the World Series. You're a notoriously jealous hater who's only record is money spent without running nines.
LOL!
Actually, I'm the only one who has the B@lls to call BS on you. You pulled a John Kerry in your own thread where you talked about how the motor on BlownGTS's car had higher compression and more boost. So how much compression did it have? And when you had the heads off you didn't port them? c'mon...
Let me spell it out in a poll
a - Either your invented a super-secret-sauce that defies the laws of physics to make stock heads magically flow 100cfm more than any other head porter and tuner, or
b - you are full of sh*t and the heads aren't stock.
I don't know where you were schooled on physics.
I'm just sayin' izall... other than saying 'because i said so' why should anyone believe that you made that kind of power when EVERY OTHER TUNER out there (DLM, JH, other JH, SVS, RSI, etc...) requires HEAD WORK to get to those numbers?
I hope you have a patent on whatever you've done!
JD
Last edited by JID : September 23rd, 2007 at 11:34 AM.
But again I BEG TO DIFFER
I would be happy to meet TOMMOROW and let you tear down my 96 B&W to find ANY upgrades whatsoever in the motor!!!! I watched my car with a boost guage on the dyno @ UGR make 17lbs. of boost with it 98 degrees and 100percent humidity lay down 838 or so RWHP after making 10 driveability pulls without even a 5 min. break!!!!!! and this was with the shit second and 93octane on (at the time 86Kmiles) now 88K never touched motor!!! 
