Maybe I'm missing something, but what is so exotic about a Dodge push rod v-10....
It's not exotic what so ever... but it's also a dodge (mopar) and parts aren't as inexpensive as the others.
I still wouldn't put junkyard turbos and such on it. You really want to save $400 on WGs only to jeopardize a full motor rebuild? Ever seen a cheap wg lock up and spike the boost pressure? I have, sounds like someone poured a coffee can of ball bearings into the throttle body, rods end up bent, twisted, and usually ventilate the block. So that $400 savings just cost you $10grr... well done.
Nothing exotic about the technology, but the quantity of parts makes them expensive to fix. Plus, a system that will make 1200-1300 rwhp is going to have a BEAUTIFUL torque curve with MOAR area under the curve than a system with miniscule T3s. Paolo has made systems for Vipers that are pretty inexpensive. A Mustang turbo system is no where close to as difficult to design and make to a Viper system. Hell, if you only want 700 RWHP for cheap with the compromises that come with a cheap system, why not just by a used ROE supercharger?
Once again, I agree with you that's where I said the R&D will come in and why his is a hell of a deal. If you compare a true 100% DIY system to his, Paolo will BLOW it away.
As far as the roe, it makes a lot of since also to go that route. Some people just want a TT system though. I guess I have always been the guy to do my own R&D and feel proud when I accomplish something.
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Originally Posted by ROGUE GTS
It's not exotic what so ever... but it's also a dodge (mopar) and parts aren't as inexpensive as the others.
I still wouldn't put junkyard turbos and such on it. You really want to save $400 on WGs only to jeopardize a full motor rebuild? Ever seen a cheap wg lock up and spike the boost pressure? I have, sounds like someone poured a coffee can of ball bearings into the throttle body, rods end up bent, twisted, and usually ventilate the block. So that $400 savings just cost you $10grr... well done.
Ok, buy the good wastegates(once again they don't have to be exotic ones that will handle 1200-1300rwhp so a price savings would still be seen). I have seen cheap WG foul up, I have also seen high quality name brand ones mess up also. No matter how much money you spend, when you go aftermarket SOMETHING is going to break. That's just the way the hobby works.
I personally have no problem slapping on, "junkyard" turbos on a simple DIY system. Will I get the best performance? No. Will I hit my desired goals for considerbly less money? Yes.
I didnt mean to start a pissing match. Just saying a simple DIY setup for the guy not looking to make monster numbers can be done for a "reasonable" price.
In all actuallity, when it comes down to it and I'm ready to put a TT system on a viper, ill probally look into Paolo base 10k system and do the rest myself. I eventually want to make that 1200-1300rwhp. I sure can't have my mustang putting down more power then a viper
It's not exotic what so ever... but it's also a dodge (mopar) and parts aren't as inexpensive as the others.
I still wouldn't put junkyard turbos and such on it. You really want to save $400 on WGs only to jeopardize a full motor rebuild? Ever seen a cheap wg lock up and spike the boost pressure? I have, sounds like someone poured a coffee can of ball bearings into the throttle body, rods end up bent, twisted, and usually ventilate the block. So that $400 savings just cost you $10grr... well done.
good point.
if you want 600hp and dont want to spend the TT price, install a paxton and be done with it.
we tune them and get 725hp at the wheels all day long. a DIY'r could just install it as is, and get 600-620rwhp with out trying.
Ok, buy the good wastegates(once again they don't have to be exotic ones that will handle 1200-1300rwhp so a price savings would still be seen). I have seen cheap WG foul up, I have also seen high quality name brand ones mess up also. No matter how much money you spend, when you go aftermarket SOMETHING is going to break. That's just the way the hobby works.
There is nothing exotic about a wastegate that can handle big power, it's all about the quality of the actuators ect... And taking the approach that when you go aftermarket, something will break is the wrong one. Paolo's last customer said that he doesn't want to ever see Paolo again unless it's at a car show or he wants more power. I think that attitude holds true for 99% of Viper owners.
Last edited by The Former PFR : July 26th, 2007 at 01:10 PM.
There is nothing exotic about a wastegate that can handle big power, it's all about the quality of the actuators ect... And taking the approach that when you go aftermarket, something will break is the wrong one. Paolo's last customer told us that he doesn't want to ever see us again unless it's at a car show or he wants more power. I think that attitude holds true for 99% of Viper owners.
Well yeah, none of us wants anything to break. Parts failure happens though eventually. Stuff gets worn or just freak things happen. If they never did their would be no use for a service department at a dealership or your local neighborhood mechanic.
And what i meant is the bigger wastegates cost more money. Smaller ones that can support "small" power levels don't cost quite as much. Savings is minimal but it is their.
When it all said and done, like some of y'all have said, if you just want 600-700rwhp slap on a roe or Paxton. Some of us though just are ricers I guess and would just like to say we have a TT setup
Well yeah, none of us wants anything to break. Parts failure happens though eventually. Stuff gets worn or just freak things happen. If they never did their would be no use for a service department at a dealership or your local neighborhood mechanic.
And what i meant is the bigger wastegates cost more money. Smaller ones that can support "small" power levels don't cost quite as much. Savings is minimal but it is their.
When it all said and done, like some of y'all have said, if you just want 600-700rwhp slap on a roe or Paxton. Some of us though just are ricers I guess and would just like to say we have a TT setup
Pretty sure the big wastegates are there because smaller ones couldn't keep a T3 the size of my big toe from spooling. So, based on your logic, you would also say, when one buys a car, something will break. This is true, but I don't think the light in which the original statement was made was indicating normal wear and tear.
Pretty sure the big wastegates are there because smaller ones couldn't keep a T3 the size of my big toe from spooling. So, based on your logic, you would also say, when one buys a car, something will break. This is true, but I don't think the light in which the original statement was made was indicating normal wear and tear.
Well ok either way if you bought the biggest of the baddest money savings elsewhere could be made.
I don't understand why you would need monster w/g, but then again I have never done a turbo setup on a large cubed engine, so I havent really done the math/theory on it either. But whatever, if that's the way it is, thats the way it is.
Well ok either way if you bought the biggest of the baddest money savings elsewhere could be made.
I don't understand why you would need monster w/g, but then again I have never done a turbo setup on a large cubed engine, so I havent really done the math/theory on it either. But whatever, if that's the way it is, thats the way it is.
A small wastegate can only flow so much exhaust around the turbo. A GT 3040 is a REALLY small turbo. So small that even with ALL of the exhaust flowed by a small wastegate, it probably would continue to spool past one's desired level of boost.
I think I would rather pay $45K where at least their test mule looks clean and there isn't oil and shit all over the bottom of the car. For god sakes remove the damn stickers off of the Autozone exhaust before you post pics like that..
A small wastegate can only flow so much exhaust around the turbo. A GT 3040 is a REALLY small turbo. So small that even with ALL of the exhaust flowed by a small wastegate, it probably would continue to spool past one's desired level of boost.
Makes sence. I have always worked on small block(351 or less cubes) when it came to boosted applications and I personally never needed the big WG's unless going after big power.
but this thread has taken a good turn now. i like the idea as im not a big dollar guy and im forced to go the DIY route and always wondered all this stuff. I dont think id go that cheap route on TT's though
I have some coin to toss into my car. But I'm not going to swing 125% of my budget just for the Turbo/engine build. For a guy like me DIY is the only way I can have what I want.
You can't have a 1500rwhp car running a stock clutch, rear end, half shafts, brakes, suspension and tires. It just will not work. The car needs to well rounded in order to use the new power, muchless make it reliable.
At this current time, there is nothing better for the DIY except Paolo's kit. Hands down, nothing can come close for the price.
I understand the super cheap turbo setup on a $10k shit box mustang... but why do that to a nice car such as a viper? And for what, to cheap out and risk losing a turbo, bad WG, and blow up a motor that can't just be rebuilt for $1k.
You are an ass...what is so nice about the Viper...I have one and while fun, I don't think it's any better in quality than "a shit box mustang." Do everyone a favor and go hang yourself you fucking prick.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what is so exotic about a Dodge push rod v-10....
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Nothing, but don't try to tell these douch bag pricks. The Viper is fun and the only thing that makes it special is that Dodge didn't really mass produce them. Although you couldn't tell that by their quality. The quality screams average american car.
Well ok either way if you bought the biggest of the baddest money savings elsewhere could be made.
I don't understand why you would need monster w/g, but then again I have never done a turbo setup on a large cubed engine, so I havent really done the math/theory on it either. But whatever, if that's the way it is, thats the way it is.
FatherFord, there are a couple things here that people might be missing in the discussion so far.
1. The 488 CI Viper motors will make quite a large volume of exhaust gases.
2. Most of the pump gas type tunes on relatively stock motors will be running low boost in the 8-10 PSI range.
So, in a nutshell, the Viper motors need to be able to bypass quite a large volume of exhaust gas VOLUME.
The most efficient way that is done is with:
1. Properly designed path from the up pipe to the inlet of the wastegate
2. A properly sized valve in the wastegate with the proper amount of surface area through which the bypassed gases need to flow.
Sometimes, depending on the space available or the way the turbine housing rotates, there is no good way to do a properly designed pipe to the wastegate inlet off the up pipe.
In this case, some people use an overly large(oversized) wastegate with a poorly designed path to the wastegate inlet to bypass more exhaust gases ONCE the valve opens.
Here is a picture of what you want to shoot for to do a proper placement of the pipe INTO the wastegate off the outside of a 90 degree bend.
The idea is the gases will be flowing directly into the wastegate before they make the turn into the turbo making a straight shot to be most efficiently bypassed.
If you look at the angle of the passenger side up pipe before the 45 to get back to horizontal and then the 90 into the turbo, you can see the straight path into the wastegate.
With the proper design and the proper sized valve, you have the most efficient and instantaneous control of the boost levels period.
How the wastegate is plumbed back into the exhaust is a whole other discussion of efficiency and overall flow.
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The slippery slope of modding any car often seems unavoidable.......... Just go turbos and avoid all the headaches! LOL!
Gotcha. The placement of the wastegate is something I found out on my first build. A propperly located WG made a world of difference. I understand now why everyone is using the larger wastegates now. Big cubes, low boost, and placement on a viper is not as "easy" as it is on a open small black car.
I got some learning to do on these bigger cubed motors.
