What I was trying to get across is that the factory IAT sensor is incredibly slow to read and over the course of a quarter of a mile can be, from what I have seen as much as 80 degrees off. With that said, all of the time that you have spent logging and analyzing IAT's has been wasted gathering useless, inaccurate data. Switch to a GM bird cage style sensor and let me know what difference you see. If you're marketing angle is going to be that your system is better in stop and go traffic on hot days then just say so but don't start preaching about how it is better in every aspect until you have done adequate testing and gathered factual data that proves this is the case.
Okay ya i would have to agree with you on a few points. The viper is a different from most cars and it does have a big air scoop like quality to it so i'll give you that. I know it will get some air where your intercoolers are located but I feel its not going to get no where near as much air as a typical front mount style.
1. Yes putting an intercooler in front of all your other heat exchanges will slightly hinder the cooling ability of the radiator but i don't think it would be that bad. I have never seen or heard of a front mount intercooler viper overheating.
2. To say the side mounts will get more air then a front mount is just a bit bias thinking and to reason it with that there is nothing behind the intercooler is just not a good reason why it will outperform a front mount. We all know a front mount would get more direct airflow.
3. Im not knocking on your design I know it will still work. Your overal setup is nice and clean
Glad you approve Mr. No Name TT builder, now fuck off junior. Sincerely, the welcoming committee.
What I was trying to get across is that the factory IAT sensor is incredibly slow to read and over the course of a quarter of a mile can be, from what I have seen as much as 80 degrees off.
With that being said wouldn't thousands of road miles negate a 'slow to respond' sensor? One would think sitting in traffic for an hour would give it plenty of time to compensate.
Are you running dual sensors, one of each type in the same location to come to this conclusion?
That being said it's worth checking out for the price of an AIT sensor.
What I was trying to get across is that the factory IAT sensor is incredibly slow to read and over the course of a quarter of a mile can be, from what I have seen as much as 80 degrees off. With that said, all of the time that you have spent logging and analyzing IAT's has been wasted gathering useless, inaccurate data. Switch to a GM bird cage style sensor and let me know what difference you see. If you're marketing angle is going to be that your system is better in stop and go traffic on hot days then just say so but don't start preaching about how it is better in every aspect until you have done adequate testing and gathered factual data that proves this is the case.
This is the reason I asked a long time ago in this post about what type of AIR/TEMP sensor was being used.
In Roofs Turbo Viper when we ran it in the beginning the Air to Water intercooler we were using showed we were @ 69 degrees at the end of the 1/4. When we did the aftermarket sensor it showed 170's at the end of the 1/4. You can not go off the factor AIT sensor.
With that being said wouldn't thousands of road miles negate a 'slow to respond' sensor? One would think sitting in traffic for an hour would give it plenty of time to compensate.
If you happened to be running the car at wide open throttle under a load the entire time then yes. You see, the IAT's only get hot when the car is under boost. This is because the air actually heats up when it is compressed. The car is not making boost while it's sitting in traffic therefore the air will not be hot, get it. You were one of the last guys that I thought I'd have to explain this to.
PFR, 130 degrees according to the stock sensor will likely be over 200 degrees with an accurate, quick responding sensor, that's not very cool.
If you happened to be running the car at wide open throttle under a load the entire time then yes. You see, the IAT's only get hot when the car is under boost. This is because the air actually heats up when it is compressed. The car is not making boost while it's sitting in traffic therefore the air will not be hot, get it. You were one of the last guys that I thought I'd have to explain this to.
PFR, 130 degrees according to the stock sensor will likely be over 200 degrees with an accurate, quick responding sensor, that's not very cool.
That's the point-- it doesn't have to be quick sensing if the lap is 15-20 minutes of nothing but hard running.
If you happened to be running the car at wide open throttle under a load the entire time then yes. You see, the IAT's only get hot when the car is under boost. This is because the air actually heats up when it is compressed. The car is not making boost while it's sitting in traffic therefore the air will not be hot, get it. You were one of the last guys that I thought I'd have to explain this to.
PFR, 130 degrees according to the stock sensor will likely be over 200 degrees with an accurate, quick responding sensor, that's not very cool.
You don't need to explain anything. Many of the road tests these cars have undergone encompass a great deal more than just cunting around the city. Does running at 200mph for a couple miles constitute enough time for the sensor to react? Or doing multiple near 200mph standing mile pulls?
Just for kicks I think i'll see if I can grab an infared thermometer and an AIT sensor to see just how off the charts it is.
But just for argument sake sticking a GM sensor in there shouldn't be too much of an issue.
You don't need to explain anything. Many of the road tests these cars have undergone encompass a great deal more than just cunting around the city. Does running at 200mph for a couple miles constitute enough time for the sensor to react? Or doing multiple near 200mph standing mile pulls?
Just for kicks I think i'll see if I can grab an infared thermometer and an AIT sensor to see just how off the charts it is.
But just for argument sake sticking a GM sensor in there shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Even doing a one mile pull the stock AIT is going to read behind the entire way, way behind. When they use a good AIT you will see...... there will be a big difference. Putting those coolers behind the fog lights is not the way to go in my opinion... We do put our coolers behind the fog light but they are Air/water
What I was trying to get across is that the factory IAT sensor is incredibly slow to read and over the course of a quarter of a mile can be, from what I have seen as much as 80 degrees off. With that said, all of the time that you have spent logging and analyzing IAT's has been wasted gathering useless, inaccurate data. Switch to a GM bird cage style sensor and let me know what difference you see. If you're marketing angle is going to be that your system is better in stop and go traffic on hot days then just say so but don't start preaching about how it is better in every aspect until you have done adequate testing and gathered factual data that proves this is the case.
Jason, Thanks for the information about the GM sensor.
I talked to Kevin @ UR earlier today and he told me the same thing.
The good thing is that all the turbo cars I have done with the twin side mounted intercoolers have a bung welded on each pipe before the throttle body.
JID can easily add another sensor to the AEM configuration and monitor both sensors and log the differences.
You might say I wasted all that time logging the AIT's and analyzing the data if that was all I was logging.
Fortunately for me I was logging quite a bit more.
In terms of the absolute AIT's, the data I have is off by a certain factor that we will determine monitoring both sensors in tandem.
BUT with that being said, the data I have with the same sensor does show the RELATIVE difference in AIT's between the two different setups.
The whole discussion on this thread was people trying to understand how the side mount intercoolers get air.
That has been explained thoroughly.
The real benefit to the side mount intercoolers is not really in the AIT department.
The benefit to the twin side mounted intercoolers is in the ability to have unrestricted airflow to the radiator to allow the cooling system to do it's job.
The front mount intercooler:
1. Blocks at least 75% of the total volume of air that would be going through the radiator without the intercooler in the way.
2. Kills the veloocity of the air going through the Oil Cooler, AC Condensor, and Radiator.
3. Preheats the air that is supposed to quench the heat the cooling system is trying to dissipate.
I have an idea about how to settle some of these questions.
How about if you bring one of your high HP TT Vipers to the road course and run the same power levels and speeds around the road course.
We will get the GM AIT sensor and we will log AIT's, Coolant Temperature, Oil Temperature for sure.
We can also log how fast the all the temps come back down to normal range after runnng hard.
This would most likely prove which approach works better don't you think?
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The slippery slope of modding any car often seems unavoidable.......... Just go turbos and avoid all the headaches! LOL!
So what you're saying is that AIT's are not the end-all performance indicator for a turbo setup?
Clint, the AIT's would be one of the most important factors that would affect the ability to make the most power at a given boost level with the proper safety margin.
The real point of the side mount intercoolers is to allow the normal amount of air that was designed to go through the radiator to allow the cooling system to dissipate the heat it was intended to do.
The Vipers, especially in the hotter climates, run hot with a monster front mount intercooler.
The side mount intercoolers are the best solution for the Viper to allow quite a large pair of cores allowing for the dissipation of the heat generated by monster power without compromising the airflow the radiator needs to get.
Think of it like this:
You double, triple or quadruple the power and you cut the airflow to the radiator by AND oil cooler 75%.
Hmm, is that a good idea?
Will such a car run hot?
Probably.
The side mounted intercoolers balance the heat buildup more power=more heat part of the equation.
.... Putting those coolers behind the fog lights is not the way to go in my opinion... We do put our coolers behind the fog light but ......
I think this is a much better option than some tuners offering a "smaller intercooler upgrade" for their high HP cars and the customer losing 150 RWHP, that's all.
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