I talked to a company today about building some bigger diameter sway bars for the gen II's including polyurethane bushings. Is there is any interest from anyone? before I take one of the cars for R&D? Thanks
There's quite a few Talented Road Racers (Dean, TVC, Janni, Manny, etc.) here that might be interested. I'm curious too to see the interest level and effectiveness on this idea.
There's quite a few Talented Road Racers (Dean, TVC, Janni, Manny, etc.) here that might be interested. I'm curious too to see the interest level and effectiveness on this idea.
Best of luck,
Jay K.
Thanks Jay, I've installed bigger sway bars on every vehicle I've had that bigger bars were an option and I can say it's by far the BEST suspension mod I've experienced! I know others with the same knowledge will agree. I can't believe this hasn't already been done I'm getting 3 sets for myself made anyway but I hope others will want them too
I sent an email to Dan today with my number so I can discuss the above questions and concerns. Hopefully I will have some answers tommorow, I will of course update as info is received> Thanks for the comments and keep em coming! btw this is a company that has been involved with susp. tuning for over 40 years so I feel (in regard to sizing) the engineers involved should be able to develop a worthy product. However, some of you guys with extensive Viper racing experience will probably need to have some input if you're willing?!
Regards, Matt
Swaybars are a crutch. They work by lifting the wheel not underload for a "feeling" of flattening out the car. They are great for tuning "out" grip to get ends of the cars to behave to a driver's preference.
Static bars and crappy polyurethane bushings are the last thing these cars need.
As I mentioned, Woodhouse already has a track proven adjustable sway bar, IMHO you are trying to reinvent the wheel.
not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just exploring tire options for the "wheel" I like the adjustability option Woodhouse offers and still think there is room for a rear bar possibly. Are you and Smakie thinking that a car cornering flatter could be a bad thing? I spend a lot of time here on a road called The Dragon (129 Deals Gap) and at least on this road I could use a little less body roll than the eibach's alone can give.
also Smackie, how can better bushings that won't detiorate or flex be bad? (not being a smartazz sincerely asking)
btw: for the people who ARE interested.. I've yet to here back from Dan yet, so I'll follow up with a phone call tommorow. The bars if and when they are built will be tested on a skid pad and slolom course for measuring improvement.
Last edited by GTSNRT10 : October 25th, 2006 at 11:12 PM.
GTSNRT10, it's apparent you don't have a clue about chassis design, so it comes off pretty Bush League that you are trying to run business development.
Just because the car is flatter, doesn't mean it's transfering more load (read: grip) to the tires. In fact, many times it's the opposite. Think about it. Swaybars are chassis band-aids. A car with no suspension still transfers load. Isaac Newton couldn't ignore forces of the universe and you won't either.
Just look at a swaybar. It connects three things...a control arm on each side and the chassis. When one of the control arm compresses under load (transferrence of the force to the outside of the car), the swaybar acts on the chassis and the opposing swaybar by pulling it up (torsion). Note: some chassis are control arm to control arm design but it does the same thing without leveraging the chassis.
So, the car "acts" flat, but that inside tire is getting diminished grip. Seriously, this is Racecar Dynamics 101. Maybe even Racecar Dynamics High School Vocational Building.
Poly bushings? Gimme a fucking break. Bind City. Spherical ends, Heim Joints, Monballs...free articulation. Not resist, resist, resist,.....snap!
This is why people end up in tire walls when they listen to idiot "tuners" who hock stupid shit on the Internet.
The only thing swaybars are good far is DIALING OUT grip. If you need the rear end to break loose a little sooner...dial in more bar. If you need the front end to push a little more...dial in more bar. If you want a car that grips, you need tire, good shocks, and the appropriate amount of spring rate for that particular track.
If anyone buys a big fucking sway bar for a Viper they are a tard.
Congratulations on your extensive knowledge on "chassis design"
Thanks for the polite way of sharing your knowledge also
I totally forgot the Viper was over engineered from the factory to be at the ragged edge of chassis stiffness with its factory sway bars To my very limited (pre high school vocational training in susp. and chassis tuning) knowledge I thought maybe the Viper could handle a relatively small(7to10 percent) increase in bar diameter I guess Eibach springs aren't a good idea either So you're in luck smackass you don't have to buy any!!!!! Thanks again:bawling:
You will find that most vipers actually respond better to a bar that has less rigidity. I ended up putting the Woohhouse bar on the lightest setting to make my car neutral and to get rid of some of the understeer. I started out rigid and it hurt the handling.
The poly bushing has the effect of making the bar appear stiffer to the chasis, which is a negative on the front on the stock viper.
You will find that most vipers actually respond better to a bar that has less rigidity. I ended up putting the Woohhouse bar on the lightest setting to make my car neutral and to get rid of some of the understeer. I started out rigid and it hurt the handling.
The poly bushing has the effect of making the bar appear stiffer to the chasis, which is a negative on the front on the stock viper.
Now that is a respectable reply! +1 Thanks Jack for the input
My experience with the cars is relatively heavy understeer unless moderate throttle is observed which on the Paxton car is hard to control boost coming on to hard and blowing the rear out beside me. The eibach's have dramatically improved the situation, however I feel the body lean is still excessive. I just wanted to improve turn in and exit a bit. Thanks again for a respectfull reply.
Well back from the grave........... here is the reply from the company that is going to build the sway bars (for those that are potentially interested in some)
"The individual that is saying that you have no clue about chassis design
needs a little education himself, if he wants to come off as a professional,
but his language would need help also.
He is correct in that a flat cornering car transfers less load to the
outside tires, but that transfer is what you DON'T want. Like many amateurs,
he is confusing grip (adhesion) with drift (rolling tire distortion). In any
case a low CG car like a viper would transfer very little extra load due to
body roll anyway (with a CG of 12", and a track of 60", a 5 degree body roll
would only transfer 3.5% of its weight or say 105 lbs on a 3000 lb car or
52.5 lbs to each tire which would only be 7% of the tire's static load). A
far greater transfer is caused by the simple fact that centrifugal force is
causing the center of mass of the car to act at an angle instead of straight
down. When that that mass vector passes the tire adhesion patch the, car
flips.
He is correct also in his statement that a car with no suspension still
transfers load, but he wrongly believes that transferring load is good for
cornering. This is because he does not understand that tire drift INCREASES
with tire load, which of course causes over or under steer or, in a well
balanced car, a larger cornering radius than what is being steered, while
what he calls "grip" or adhesion would only increase if the total weight of
the car increased, which it does not as transferred weight just comes off
the two inner tires. If he had taken Race car dynamics 101, he would have
been shown the experiment that drags a brick on it's side, then on it's end,
then on it's edge and it takes the same force to pull it: As the friction
increases with the area, it decreases with the pressure, thus the force
required remains the same. Thus the transfer of weight will not effect total
adhesion.
What it does do though, is to increase the outer tire drift. As the drift
increases, the inner tires have less weight on them and are forced to drift
and or be dragged sideways as they roll. Where he says "swaybars are only
good for dialing out grip" he is again confusing grip (adhesion) with drift.
A swaybar puts more body roll transfer on that end of the car and thus
increases the DRIFT while it reduces the drift on the other end of the car
as it is suppressing body roll that would have caused more drift there
through body roll transfer via the springs or swaybar on that end. That is
why a swaybar, even a light one of say 100lbs/in, can tune a chassis so
well, as what it takes off one end it puts on the other without the
degradation of adhesion that would result from stiffer springs. Sway bars
only use body roll to effect tire loading, not car weight or centrifugal
force.
There is a reason that since Ferdinand Porsche first used them in 1930, all
manufacturers have used them to balance and stabilize their cars.
As to his comments about "poly" bushings, they do not bind on accurately
made bars that have a true axis, unless they are the incorrect size or are
in the incorrect bracket that squeezes them out of shape. Hiem joints work
fine but wear out quick unless lined.
I have always noticed that the flippant wise-guy types are that way so as to
cover up a lack of knowledge."
Well back from the grave........... here is the reply from the company that is going to build the sway bars (for those that are potentially interested in some)
"The individual that is saying that you have no clue about chassis design
needs a little education himself, if he wants to come off as a professional,
but his language would need help also.
He is correct in that a flat cornering car transfers less load to the
outside tires, but that transfer is what you DON'T want. Like many amateurs,
he is confusing grip (adhesion) with drift (rolling tire distortion). In any
case a low CG car like a viper would transfer very little extra load due to
body roll anyway (with a CG of 12", and a track of 60", a 5 degree body roll
would only transfer 3.5% of its weight or say 105 lbs on a 3000 lb car or
52.5 lbs to each tire which would only be 7% of the tire's static load). A
far greater transfer is caused by the simple fact that centrifugal force is
causing the center of mass of the car to act at an angle instead of straight
down. When that that mass vector passes the tire adhesion patch the, car
flips.
He is correct also in his statement that a car with no suspension still
transfers load, but he wrongly believes that transferring load is good for
cornering. This is because he does not understand that tire drift INCREASES
with tire load, which of course causes over or under steer or, in a well
balanced car, a larger cornering radius than what is being steered, while
what he calls "grip" or adhesion would only increase if the total weight of
the car increased, which it does not as transferred weight just comes off
the two inner tires. If he had taken Race car dynamics 101, he would have
been shown the experiment that drags a brick on it's side, then on it's end,
then on it's edge and it takes the same force to pull it: As the friction
increases with the area, it decreases with the pressure, thus the force
required remains the same. Thus the transfer of weight will not effect total
adhesion.
What it does do though, is to increase the outer tire drift. As the drift
increases, the inner tires have less weight on them and are forced to drift
and or be dragged sideways as they roll. Where he says "swaybars are only
good for dialing out grip" he is again confusing grip (adhesion) with drift.
A swaybar puts more body roll transfer on that end of the car and thus
increases the DRIFT while it reduces the drift on the other end of the car
as it is suppressing body roll that would have caused more drift there
through body roll transfer via the springs or swaybar on that end. That is
why a swaybar, even a light one of say 100lbs/in, can tune a chassis so
well, as what it takes off one end it puts on the other without the
degradation of adhesion that would result from stiffer springs. Sway bars
only use body roll to effect tire loading, not car weight or centrifugal
force.
There is a reason that since Ferdinand Porsche first used them in 1930, all
manufacturers have used them to balance and stabilize their cars.
As to his comments about "poly" bushings, they do not bind on accurately
made bars that have a true axis, unless they are the incorrect size or are
in the incorrect bracket that squeezes them out of shape. Hiem joints work
fine but wear out quick unless lined.
I have always noticed that the flippant wise-guy types are that way so as to
cover up a lack of knowledge."
I remember 2 road race Camaro's being compared years ago.
1 had the usual stiff racing springs and adjustable shocks, and went light on the sway bars - relying on the "correct spring rates"
The 2nd had much stiffer front and rear sway bars which were tunable, softer springs and adjustable shocks
Both cars had almost identical lap times when dialed in and tuned for that track - but the driver far preferred the bigger sway bar car to drive as it rode the surface better and was far less harsh.
The lesson was there was more than one way to skin a cat - and the softer car that cornered flatter was much easier on the car and driver. Harsh road/race cars soon become rattle city and bone shakers.
I'm getting 3 sets for myself made anyway but I hope others will want them too
I like the adjustability option Woodhouse offers and still think there is room for a rear bar possibly. Are you and Smakie thinking that a car cornering flatter could be a bad thing? I spend a lot of time here on a road called The Dragon (129 Deals Gap) and at least on this road I could use a little less body roll than the eibach's alone can give. 
to be at the ragged edge of chassis stiffness with its factory sway bars
To my very limited (pre high school vocational training in susp. and chassis tuning) knowledge I thought maybe the Viper could handle a relatively small(7to10 percent) increase in bar diameter
I guess Eibach springs aren't a good idea either
So you're in luck smackass you don't have to buy any!!!!! Thanks again:bawling:
