I recently installed my nitrous and propane BTR kit, this kit was purchased from a local Viper owner who had it on his GTS for a couple of years, and before everyone tells me to talk to Tom Welch I've tried calling and emailing with no response.
My car is a 1999 GTS with Roe Blower, 8#, SVS headers, 3" Borla, no cats, Roe Meth injection. We are maxing out my fuel pump and injectors at 602RWHP and 658RWTQ, hence the reason for doing the propane / nitrous.
I recieved one of BTR's older kits with an elaborate harness and Holley Viper fuel enrichment box deigned for a 92-95 GenI dry system from Holley, I was told by the previous owner that this box was removed as they could never get it to work correct, he let me know the system was changed over to a regular micro switch activation, however the box was still in the harness. Simply put I removed this harness and made my own, the system is hooked up just like any NOS wet kit now, and it triggers off of a micro switch, the only difference is I have a line running from my propane tank to the fuel solenoid instead of pulling fuel from the fuel system.
A few questions:
What size jets are some of you running that are using nitrous / propane only? I'm not using BTR's additional gasoline injection, I've read most are using a 52 nitrous and a 40 fuel, but I've also read a 52 nitrous and a 30 fuel so there is quite a big difference on the propane side.
What pressure do you keep your propane bottles at? MIN and MAX? right now my pressure is at 132PSI on a partially used bottle.
Does anyone regulate their propane pressure? I was thinking about getting a regualtor and keeping it at 90psi or so, how about a heater does anyone use a heater on the propane bottle to keep the pressure high?
1-900 CALL-BTR (tech line) is coming soon. Simply don't have enough time
during business hours for idle conversation and non customer care.
Take care
P.S. You will need a different setup if you are not using the NOS Fuel enrichment box. We moved away from that unit over 2 years ago. NOS Fuel
solenoid and fogger nozzle cannot flow enough propane for enrichment by
itself....
1-900 with all the time I've spent on the phone with those guys at Roe... I hope Sean Dave don't get any idea's! I didn't buy the blower diectly from them either, but I am now a customer for life simply becasue of the customer service they have provided me with.
I'm not looking for any more than a few minutes of your time, I understand if you dont have time on the phone, thats why I sent over 2 emails.. both went unanswered.
I have a few simple questions that will probably take about as much time to answer as your above post took to compose:
How much HP will the propane allow for with a fuel solenoid / fogger nozzle? your response of "NOS fuel solenoid and fogger nozzle cannot flow enough propane for enrichment by itself..." is leaving many questions unanswered. This kit was on a Viper for 2 years with "a NOS fuel Solenoid and a fogger nozzle by itself" I know it can support nitrous the way it sits the question is how much? Larry Macedo had installed this kit on the previous customers car, it was spraying enough to kill a 15lb bottle in 3-4 runs, the owner had no idea what kind of shot he was running nor did he know the jet sizes, he had Larry do all of the work/setup for him.
At what HP level does the fogger / solenoid stop flowing enough propane? Over what HP level does someone need to add your gas injection?
what pressure should I keep the propane bottle at? I was thinking about regulating it, if I regulate it what pressure would you recommend?
Do you have some common jet sizes for N20 / Propane? I've talked to a guy who was running a 63 / 63 in his 04 Viper with no gasoline injection at all. I've also read of people running a 52/40 with their BTR N20 / Propane kits with no added gasoline injection.
Do you have any instructions that I could get from you?
If you don't have time to reply to this it's ok, I already ordered 26 NOS flare jets and a wideband O2, I'm going to datalog with the VECII and the wideband, I plan on starting small and slowly working my way up. I used to own a dynojet center here in Orlando so I'm not oblivious to tuning with N20, you probably know my tuner, Angel Robles. I just thought it might help if I had more of a baseline to start my tuning.
1-900 I hope Sean Roe doesn't pickup on this idea, I would be broke.
Tom, I only have a few simple questions that will probably take about as much time to answer as your above post took to compose.
How much HP will the propane allow for with a fuel solenoid / fogger nozzle? your response of "NOS fuel solenoid and fogger nozzle cannot flow enough propane for enrichment by itself..." is leaving many questions unanswered. This kit was on a Viper for 2 years with "a NOS fuel Solenoid and a fogger nozzle by itself" I know it can support nitrous the way it sits the question is how much? Larry Macedo had installed this kit on the previous customers car, it was spraying enough to kill a 15lb bottle in 3-4 runs, the owner had no idea what kind of shot he was running nor did he know the jet sizes, he had Larry do all of the work/setup for him.
At what HP level does the fogger / solenoid stop flowing enough propane? Over what HP level does someone need to add your gas injection?
what pressure should I keep the propane bottle at? I was thinking about regulating it, if I regulate it what pressure would you recommend?
Do you have some common jet sizes for N20 / Propane? I've talked to a guy who was running a 63 / 63 in his 04 Viper with no gasoline injection at all. I've also read of people running a 52/40 with their BTR N20 / Propane kits with no added gasoline injection.
Do you have any instructions that I could get from you?
Why don't you just upgrade your fuel system and run more boost and timing? Seems like a better approach than running a takeoff nitrous system with many unknowns replete with a propane take that looks like it belongs under a barbecue grill. No flame intended here, just don't understand the approach.
Because even with an upgraded fuel system and more boost what am I looking at? 30RWHP? if that?? I'm already making 603RWHP / 660RWTQ, the record for a Roe blower is 720RWHP or so and to get that I would have to get: ported heads, upgraded harware in the head, roller rockers, throttle bodies, fuel system, pulley, and probably have to ditch my SVS 1.5" primary headers in favor of Belanger or B+B.... So to get another 120RWHP I'm looking at roughly $10,000.00+ going with more boost/timing, and IMO if I went this way I would be working my motor/blower harder as the combo will always make 700+RWHP daily, my other option was to add a 100-200 shot and make nearly 800RWHP with much more torque, a plus side for me is I'll probably hardly ever use the spray, if I ever get into a race where I need an extra 150-200RWHP I'll have it ready, but not even the new Z06 will hang with 602RWHP/650RWTQ so I doubt I would hardly use the N20 much I just want it on tap if I do need it...
I'll figure out the N20 / Propane jet sizing / pressure, and when I do I won't put up a 1-900 number to help others in the Viper community.
Adam
I found the answer to one of my more important questions in one of Toms old posts "Your propane pressure should be at least 140 psi with 160 psi preferred. This is important! Your system will perform at its best with nos pressure between 950 and 1100 psi. The heater is designed to maintain a safe and conservative 900 psi (85 degrees F). You will see substantial gains from increased NOS pressure but you MUST HAVE PROPANE PRESSURE AT OPTIMUM to avoid detonation."
Hey Wesman, I think that was him.. sorry to hear, I did a local pickup. Did you get your money back? The kit was missing nos jets, micro switch, and bracket.. There really is not much to adding the propane.. just a bottle, line, gauge, and a few fittings. I cant see it costing more than 150-200 to convert a NX or NOS system. I plan on buying a regulator for mine to keep the pressure at 150-160.
BTW this was posted over on Viper Club replying to Mr Welch.. my feelings exactly:
"Tom, First off I very politely said that I realized you were a very busy man and completely understood you not immediately returning my E-MAILS. I did not leave you a message on your answering machine as I assumed the e-mails were enough and didn't want to seem pestering. BTW I used the e-mail option on the contact us page. And finally, I was non trying to simply gather free information. I had the exact information listed in the e-mail that is listed above and simply asked you what else I needed to do the conversion from N2O/Gas to N2O/Propane, and what you would charge me for those parts. Therefore I was not asking for freebie advice. I was asking for advice and some parts. So, Mr. Welch I appreciate you making up my mind for me. From what I have read here you are the man for nitrous/propane setups. However, thanks to your reply I have gathered that someone spending some money with you is much more important than your customer service. Thank you Sir."
Paid his ass over a month ago and after several lies and BS he said he sold the kit ocally. I haven't gotten my money back, yet. He's got some authorities looking for him now.
It doesn't surprise me it was missing things.....this guy is a scumbag.
since trying to email Tom I've spoke to a number of tuners/owners of Propane and Nitrous and I think my system is ready to test once my jets arrive. I plan on letting Sean Roe dial it in, I just wanted to get a base for where my pressure / jet sizes should start that all. I'll post up the dyno #'s and let you guys know how it all goes.
It's funny how Tom labels my questions as "non customer care" last I checked I have a BTR nitrous and propane kit strapped to my Viper. I think it's good for future BTR customers to consider statements like these before spending $2000.00 on a kit. Before I buy a product I think about terms of resale value, and what resale value can a product hold if the MFG of that product no longer offers service/support to future owners? I find this ironic as I read a post over on Viper club where during one of Tom's threads one of the selling points made was resale value of his kit, of course he was writing this to prospective customers.
As can be seen, this kit was missing parts, and may have had other modifications
that are not advised or sold by BTR Performance. We will never know for sure. It is today and has always been my policy to not give installation or tuning advice on systems not sold or installed by me.
I'd rather have mad NON-customers who cannot blame me for failure due to a used or modified component that they purchased at a "deal", then the alternative which is give a bunch of free advice and time only to have the system fail and create possible unwanted liability with no profit gained.
BTR Performance offers full warranty to the original purchaser of our Nitrous Systems including lifetime warranty on Solenoids and other electrical items.
You get what you pay for. If you want to buy parts for your Viper on Ebay for
a deal, you are on your own. Want a warranty and all of my knowledge and experience, it comes with a pricetag. If this is unacceptable, please accept
my apologies and see if the Ebay help desk can take care of your issues.
And what parts are you so concerned about? there is nothing to this kit other than a propane bottle/gauge and a standard NOS brand cheater wet kit.
This system was sold by you Tom, its BTR system.. did you not sell Matt Langford his system? This system was only touched by one person.. Larry Macedo installed it and removed it, nothing has been modified, yes we're missing a standard microswitch and the bracket that holds the microswitch... oh and the flare jets too nothing that should be of any concern, and I didn't buy the kit from ebay, I drove to the guys house and picked it up, he was selling it on the forums. I was only asking a few simple to answer questions with no liability attached. Thanks for the information but when I came to the realize you weren't calling me back nor were you emailing me I spent much of my time emailing people like Bill from V.O.S. who had nothing to gain by helping me out, I really appriciate the help I recieved from guys like Bill and Big Carrot. IMO you really should offer support on your product after the sale regardless of who the original owner is. Does it really matter if it's me calling for advise or the original owner? It's still a BTR product. Maybe you should put a serial # on your propane bottle to validate your product when taking customer service calls.
Take this for what it's worth. I don't post here much, mostly lurk so many of you won't take this seriously. A few years back I purchased the top of the line BTR nitrous/fuel/propane kit for about 3 grand from Tom. When I got the kit it had no instructions and was missing a fuel cell and propane tank as well as some nitrous nozzles and a fuel solonoid. I tried calling Tom and emailing him for a few months and could not get all the stuff. He insisted it was all sent, but parts were missing and if the boxes were weighed, he would know the parts were not inside. Over time I got some, but not all of the parts needed to install the kit. In the end I got frustrated and shipped everything I had unused back to him and did a chargeback. The credit card company immediately returned the money to me.
A bit later I finally get a response from Tom. He is trying to sue me for the theft of the kit because he saw the chargeback and said not all the parts were returned. Duh . . of course not, they weren't ever recieved in the first place.
I never posted this because I know he is a popular person on the viper forums and I would probably just get bashed by his friends. Tom even told me to basically knock myself out because he figured he was too well known and no one would listen to me. But my viper tech and my viper friends all knew I was getting treated badly by BTR. Some of those people post on this board and are not in California but had been keeping in touch because they were thinking about the BTR kits. After all this happened none of them bought.
So even if you are a customer you may not get service or help from BTR.
In the end I bought an NX kit and got great customer service from Albert Choubler. So take it for what it's worth.
BTW I agree with comments on Sean Roe. His customer service is tops. Spends the time needed with you and always returns calls. As one of the very first customers for the superchargers, there were several problems, but I never returned anything to Sean because his customer service was so good that I knew he would make everything right. I have since bought more things from Sean and have recommended him to other viper owners
The fellow above forgot to mention that he in fact did receive all of his components, kept everything for about 5 months before deciding to attempt a return without contacting us. In the end he got sued, and had to pay along
with sending back all of the parts, which were sold again(not to mention attorney fees). From the beginning this person ( I will not divuldge his name as everyone can see he still hides behind screenames) I knew that this person had no business with one of these kits, but It's not my job to say no or deny
someone from purchasing.
In a nutshell, although I am involved in other and more profitable ventures, my love of the Viper and going fast in general will probably never die. Therefore BTR Performance lives on and continues to deliver quality products. I will operate this sucessfull business in any way that I see fit, regardless of the banter on these forums. Every tuner has had their share of customers like the above and/or other bad business. The strong always survive. Should you wish to inquire about a purchase, please feel free to contact us.
with all the time I've spent on the phone with those guys at Roe... I hope Sean Dave don't get any idea's! I didn't buy the blower diectly from them either, but I am now a customer for life simply becasue of the customer service they have provided me with.
