I have started this list as a way of trying to categorize the similarities and differences between the various packages that these tuning companies have to offer. I am not a tuner myself and do not endorse any particular company. However, I was hoping this might be helpful to others like me who have spent hours and hours researching these different tuners and types of power adders to make a decision.
If there is something in this list that is inaccurate, please make a proposed correction. DO NOT RIP ME A NEW ONE. If I got something wrong, or misunderstood something, feel free to let me know, but I assure you I've done my level best to try to get this stuff right.
Although I have not had any of these tuners do any work on my car, and I know you guys all have your favorites, I can tell you this: EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE GUYS was more than willing to talk to me on the phone for as long as it took to answer all of my questions. There was NO EXCEPTION to this. The customer service, at least on the phone, was INCREDIBLE with all of them. It was amazing to me that a phone call to these shops was answered by the owner himself every time. I was never rushed off the phone. No tuner ever bashed another tuner. They were all very professional.
Although I can't vouch for any of the products yet, I can tell you that my research consisted of speaking with Jason Heffner at Heffner Performance personally, speaking with Kevin at Underground Racing personally, speaking with both David and Sean Roe at Roe Racing personally, and speaking with Gerald at RSI personally.
I know this list is not exhaustive, so please don't yell at me. I haven't had a chance to talk to John Hennessey or Paolo Castellano yet. Just haven't had time. But here is what I've gathered so far:
Roe Racing:
Supercharger kit.
Available from 5 psi to 12 psi
No intercooler option
Methanol injection available for under $400.
Easy installation.
Includes new injectors, new plugs, and a VEC2 for fuel and timing tuning.
HP with no other major modifications seems to be in the 550-600 rwhp range.
Obviously, heads/cam, headers, etc will raise this number some.
Not really upgradeable beyond pulley size and other motor mods.
Approximate cost: $8500 installed with methanol injection kit
Heffner Twin Turbo kit:
Twin turbo kit
Two turbos, two bov's, two wastegates
Upgraded fuel system, including ss lines, upgraded fuel rail, upgraded fuel pump, upgraded injectors, AEM standalone engine management computer
Front Mount Intercooler included
Headers are included as part of the kit, so no aftermarket headers are necessary.
Approximate HP on pump gas and stock motor: 700-800 rwhp.
Upgradeable with bigger turbos. More power can be made with race fuel. More power can be made with stroker motor and better internals.
Approximate cost: $30,000 installed.
Heffner DIY twin turbo kit:
Two smaller turbos, two smaller wastegates, two smaller bov's.
Minor fuel system mods which include fuel pump boosters and VEC2, but not a complete fuel system or stand alone engine management.
Front mount intercooler included.
Headers are included as part of the kit, so no aftermarket headers are necessary.
Approximate HP on pump gas and stock motor: 600 rwhp
Not really upgradeable because of the size of the piping and other components. Also the stock fuel system is a limitation.
Approximate cost: $12,000 installed
Underground Racing
Twin turbo kit
GT35r turbos, two bov's, two wastegates
Upgraded fuel system including ss lines, upgraded fuel rail, upgraded fuel injectors, upgraded fuel pump, AEM engine management
Front mount intercooler included
Headers are included as part of the kit, so no aftermarket headers are necessary.
Approximate HP on pump gas and stock motor: 700-800 rwhp.
Upgradeable with bigger turbos. More power can be made with race fuel. More power can be made with stroker motor and better internals.
Approximate cost: $30,000 installed.
RSI:
Twin turbo kit
Two turbos, two bov's, two wastegates
Minor fuel system upgrades such as booster pumps and FMU. No new rails, pumps, or injectors included at the base stage.
Optional upgraded fuel system, including ss lines, upgraded fuel rail, upgraded fuel pump, upgraded injectors, AEM standalone engine management computer is available for an extra charge.
Split Second box for fuel and timing tuning.
Front Mount Intercooler included
Headers are included as part of the kit, so no aftermarket headers are necessary.
Approximate HP on pump gas and stock motor: 700-800 rwhp.
Upgradeable with bigger turbos. Upgradeable with bigger fuel system. More power can be made with race fuel. More power can be made with stroker motor and better internals.
Approximate cost: $20,000 installed. Approximately $25,000 with upgraded fuel system and AEM.
Again, this list is not exhaustive. I know Heffner, Underground and RSI also have centrifugal blower kits, too. I'm sure there are people who make more or less power with each kit. I just wanted to start a list or a chart that can provide some really quick reference to anyone looking to do forced induction on their cars. I hope it's at least a useful start.
Paolo Castellano's TT setups are far and beyond better in terms of R&D and upgradability.
give him a call and you will agree with me.
REDGTS, I have sold one so far and it should be running very shortly here. I have several other deposits and many others interested.
Here are a couple of links for Johnny Bravo to check out:
The first one is a general description. THe second one goes into a lot more details. Anybody looking to get a twin turbo system on their Viper owes it to themselves to read the longer informational post!
REDGTS, I have sold one so far and it should be running very shortly here. I have several other deposits and many others interested.
Here are a couple of links for Johnny Bravo to check out:
The first one is a general description. THe second one goes into a lot more details. Anybody looking to get a twin turbo system on their Viper owes it to themselves to read the longer informational post!
Paolo, my intent certainly was not to bash you at all. I wish you well and hope you are successful. Competition and having more good choices is a good thing. But for someone to say what you're developing is "far and beyond" what other established tuners are offering before you have the first system out there running on a customer's car seemed quite premature, to say the least.
Paolo, my intent certainly was not to bash you at all. I wish you well and hope you are successful. Competition and having more good choices is a good thing. But for someone to say what you're developing is "far and beyond" what other established tuners are offering before you have the first system out there running on a customer's car seemed quite premature, to say the least.
I agree! Paolo's TT setup I'm sure is awesome but at this point for someone to say it is "far and beyond" is rediculous at best. UGR, Heffner, and Hennessey have the best and proven kits.
Paolo, my intent certainly was not to bash you at all. I wish you well and hope you are successful. Competition and having more good choices is a good thing. But for someone to say what you're developing is "far and beyond" what other established tuners are offering before you have the first system out there running on a customer's car seemed quite premature, to say the least.
REDGTS, I did not think you were bashing me in the least bit.
I think he was referring to the upgradability of my DIY system.
I think you might be taking the "far and beyond" out of context:
The DIY can fit a pair of 76 GTS's which is certainly above and beyond the basic 30K T-03/T-04 hybrid systems listed above in terms of how much air they can move at a much lower boost level. So 8-900 RWHP on 10 PSI/93 octane is certainly better than 900 RWHP@ 15-17 PSI and race gas.
My DIY system WITH 76 GTS's, AEM, fuel system should come in around the same price(around 30K installed) as the packages listed above.
Like you said, competition and having more good choices is a good thing.
For a reference point, the 76 GTS turbo is actually a bigger turbo than Chad ran on his car when he ran the 8.75@ 168.
It really all comes down to what you want to do with your car and how you want to make your power.
All other things being equal, I would rather make the same power at a lower boost levels.
I agree! Paolo's TT setup I'm sure is awesome but at this point for someone to say it is "far and beyond" is rediculous at best. UGR, Heffner, and Hennessey have the best and proven kits.
Brian, you are correct! But developing completely different products is not an easy thing to do. The burden of proof to lay down the #'s is on me.
THANK YOU PAOLO FOR CLARIFYING AND BACKING UP WHAT I SAID. YOU GUYS NEED TO CHILL....TOO MANY OF YOU JUMP AND YELL BEFORE CAREFULLY READING WHAT THE PERSON'S WRITING....geeeeeZZZZZ looooweeeZZZZ
Those are great #'s Paolo. I can't wait to see what it will do at the track. Very nice system indeed.
Diablo
No one is jumping up or down. We simply said that right now the TT systems from UGR, Heffner, Hennessey are the proven ones. They have the track numbers to back them up and have built and sold many of these setups. For you to say that Paolo's system is far and beyond doesn't hold up right now that's all.
you really need to see paolos work in person. Trust me, it would be wise to wait it out and see what this car does on LOW boost.... I think it will run with the best of them on pump gas and low boost... imho.
REDGTS, I did not think you were bashing me in the least bit.
I think he was referring to the upgradability of my DIY system.
I think you might be taking the "far and beyond" out of context:
The DIY can fit a pair of 76 GTS's which is certainly above and beyond the basic 30K T-03/T-04 hybrid systems listed above in terms of how much air they can move at a much lower boost level. So 8-900 RWHP on 10 PSI/93 octane is certainly better than 900 RWHP@ 15-17 PSI and race gas.
My DIY system WITH 76 GTS's, AEM, fuel system should come in around the same price(around 30K installed) as the packages listed above.
Like you said, competition and having more good choices is a good thing.
For a reference point, the 76 GTS turbo is actually a bigger turbo than Chad ran on his car when he ran the 8.75@ 168.
It really all comes down to what you want to do with your car and how you want to make your power.
All other things being equal, I would rather make the same power at a lower boost levels.
Continuing this discussion, a couple of points. First, you may prove me wrong, but I have a hard time seeing how you can make 900 rwhp (or close to it) at 10 psi through stock heads, no mater how large a turbo you use. The larger turbo can move more air with less restriction, but it still has to move that air through the stock heads, which in my admittedly non-expert opinion do not flow enough air to make that much power at 10 psi on 93 octane.
Second, I'm not sure how much of a selling point upgradeability will be beyond the 1,100-1,200 rwhp that I think both the Heffner and UGR systems are capable of with some decent heads, cam etc. It is extremely difficult to use more than a portion of that level on the street, and anything more than that would almost have to be for someone who is dedicated to squeezing the last .5 or more out at the track and is willing to spend some serious bucks to upgrade various other things to do it. And those type people (like, uh, Chad) aren't really worried about whether they can use the same turbos or need to take everything off and start over. Where I see your market is in selling the DIY kit to people who don't want to spend $30k initially but who can then upgrade to the more powerful setup later that would be similar to the Heffner and UGR systems powerwise. Of course, Jason's DIY kit can be upgraded in similar fashion by upgrading the fuel system and adding the larger turbos, etc. I think both systems will do well so long as the fundamentals (cost, reliability, customer service, etc.) are taken care of.
On a side note, I think the front-mounted turbos would look pretty cool if there were a way to leave them uncovered (which as far as I know there isn't without cooking your hood and various things in the engine compartment), but I don't like the look of them wrapped at all. But that's a personal preference issue and I'm sure others would disagree.
REDGTS, I encourage the questions you are asking and look foreward to future discussions on these topics.
I would like to point out that Sal P's car being bone stock made about 927 RWHP and 1167 RWTQ @ 17 PSI on race gas with a the AEM. There are several other Heffner turbo cars out there making similar power to what Sal made through a stock pair of heads.
I have looked at a compressor map for the GT-35R turbos on Sal's car and most likely your car as well(Please let me know if I am wrong). ==>The GT-35R's move about 50-55 lbs of air/minute @ 15-17 PSI at around a 72-65% efficiency range.
The GT-35R's moved that amount of air through Sal's stock heads making about 1050 crank HP that translates to about 927 RWHP with a 12% driveline loss.
Now, if we look at the compressor map for the 76 GTS's, we will see that they can move 50-55 lbs of air/minute at a boost pressure as low as 7-8 PSI at around 65-70% efficiency.
I personally think that it will move the 50-55 Lbs/minute at more like 10 PSI based on what I saw from the turbos I ran on my car at various boost pressures.
X amount of lbs air/min through a given set of(stock) headsis X amount. Whether you have to run 17 or 10 PSI is up to the individual choosing how they want to make their power.
You have to think of the bigger turbo as nothing more than a higher volume air pump.
You said you are admittedly not an expert, nor do I claim to be one myself. I am simply discussing what I have been pursuing and learning about for the last several years.
I can tell you this:
If you talk to the turbo sales/tech guys, unless you are asking about an application with which they are familiar, they are guessing about when the boost will come on, what part of the efficiency island the turbo will be using and so on.
I remember the one tech telling me that the turbos I was about to use would spool 1700 RPM later than the GT-35R's all other things being equal....
I believe I had peak torque(full boost) by about 4050 RPM. I think the GT-35R's were hitting peak torque by around 3900 RPM. So much for the "expert opinion". Does that mean he was not very smart/good? Absolutely not! Until one tries a specific combination, it is all a guess.
All turbo systems are designed differently==> Some are more efficient spooling quickly with bigger turbos and some are less efficient which spool quickly with a relatively smaller pair of turbos.....
So I made an extrapolation of what I think a pair of 76 GTS's will make on low boost with my new system. Will I be right? We will have to wait and see!
I can tell you that with my car, we made 853 RWHP and 1010 RWTQ at 9 PSI on the dyno revving only to 4880 RPM through an automatic transmission in overdrive with the converter locked up.
My motor made 500 RWHP off boost with 8.5:1 compression ratio with a set of heads that flowed less than 260CFM @ 600 lift.
With a bigger pair of turbos, a stock 400-450 RWHP motor with 9.5:1 compression ratio and lesser flowing heads might or might not make close to the same RWHP I experienced especially through a manual transmission in 1:1 4th gear.
Regardless of the actual boost #, whether it is 7,8 10 or even 12PSI, you really have to agree there is still a benefit to running lower boost to make the SAME power.
You had said "Second, I'm not sure how much of a selling point upgradeability will be beyond the 1,100-1,200 rwhp that I think both the Heffner and UGR systems are capable of with some decent heads, cam etc."
I think there is 1100-1200 RWHP and there is 1100-1200 RWHP. There is high boost derived and low boost derived 11-1200 RWHP.
The smaller turbos with smaller turbine wheels and turbine housings will
1. Will come on sooner and more violently==> a smaller turbo will hit harder and fall off earlier due to #2
2. Have more backpressure
==>backpressure is when the turbine wheel diameter and AR are too small to flow the air the turbo is forcing into the motor.... at a certain point, the piston coming up on the exhaust stroke cannot expel the previous combustion's exhaust gases
Think of this as pedalling a bicycle and pushing down with your right leg for the push but having a 500 LB circus lady sitting on your left knee...
This is definitely not easy on the motor or your knee(joke)!
You said, "It is extremely difficult to use more than a portion of that level on the street, and anything more than that would almost have to be for someone who is dedicated to squeezing the last .5 or more out at the track and is willing to spend some serious bucks to upgrade various other things to do it."
==> You are definitely correct about that especially when you are talking about hard hitting, relatively speaking, smaller turbos.
I remember Heffner telling me how Gary Javo's car was harder to hook on the dyno than Chad's car(when it made 1200+/1200+ right before he set the world record at Bradenton).
So the usability of when the power hits increases with bigger turbos.
This is because the resolution of the threshold/window to control the boost as it comes on increases as the turbine wheel and housing size is increased.
You said, "And those type people (like, uh, Chad) aren't really worried about whether they can use the same turbos or need to take everything off and start over."
I am sure Chad is not worried about that which you speak of, but I am sure there are several guys who are at the 900 RWHP level who would love to upgrade to 1200 RWHP but would need a completely different turbo system(not to mention a built motor) to do so without running crazy boost with the smaller ones.
You said, "Where I see your market is in selling the DIY kit to people who don't want to spend $30k initially but who can then upgrade to the more powerful setup later that would be similar to the Heffner and UGR systems powerwise."
I could not agree with you more, the main market for the upgradeable DIY is definitely the upgrade in stages customer(which there are quite a lot of guys out there, who, like you said do not want to spend the 30K all at once)
BUT there is another type of customer to consider:
The guys who are paying 30K for 900 RWHP (on a stock motor from the established T-03/T-04 hybrids/footwell mounted tuners) who could get my bolt-on WITH the 76 GTS's/AEM/fuel system for 30K installed as well.
The benefits(from my perspective) would be the following:
1. Making the initial 900 RWHP at much lower boost
2. The capacity of upgrading to a much more driveable 1100-1200 RWHP with the addition of a motor build.
3. The ability to see the turbos and something spectacular when you open the hood!
You said, "Of course, Jason's DIY kit can be upgraded in similar fashion by upgrading the fuel system and adding the larger turbos, etc."
I am sure he can put on bigger turbos, but "Bigger" is a relative word. By bigger, do you mean T-04 based turbine housings or just a bigger compressor wheel to move more air?
Jim and I designed the bolt-on system to be able to make the same or more power than the tuner installed 30K systems at a lower boost pressure which is definitely safer than high boost for the stock engines.
You said, 'I think both systems will do well so long as the fundamentals (cost, reliability, customer service, etc.) are taken care of."
Agreed.
You said, "On a side note, I think the front-mounted turbos would look pretty cool if there were a way to leave them uncovered (which as far as I know there isn't without cooking your hood and various things in the engine compartment)but I don't like the look of them wrapped at all. But that's a personal preference issue and I'm sure others would disagree "
This is an interesting point you bring to the discussion: However, if you are referring to the pictures I posted on the .Org site, that is by no means the way the system will look as a finished product.
I just happened to have some heat shielding left over that we did not use on my car that I just threw on to cover up some of the R&D we spent so much time/effort and money developing.
I took into account peoples reactions to the type of heat shielding I used and have come up with an alternate mode to accomplish a functional and safe containment of the radiant heat. I can tell you I had no problems with my car and have diligently planned to accomplish the same for the bolt-on system.
One of the major selling points of my bolt-on system, aside from the functional and value related topics already discussed, is the aesthetic/bling coefficient which will be high. It looks like a million bucks and will make you drool. :thumb:
Paolo, interesting feedback. And I'll be interested to see how things pan out with the power/boost issue, the physical appearance of the production kit, etc. as you move forward. I'm sure you'll learn some new things along the way, because as you point out, some things make perfect sense on paper but simply don't happen that way in practice. Sorta like the engineers that figured out a bumblebee shouldn't be able to fly I guess. Good luck.
I believe the kit will be as complete as paolo's posts,when it's done.
Paolo are you offering the Roe Racing marketing stratagy,with a discount to initial buyers?
