While perusing my project magazines I came across a company that offers
titanium brake rotors for a C5 Corvette (Red Devil Brakes Inc. 724-696-3744)
and for other cars (ZMI Brake Systems 866-964-7867 www.zmibrakes.com).
My question, before I start looking for a set for a Viper
is are these a real performance upgrade or are they just bling?
Having worked to a limited extent with titanium it seems like its desire to gall
would limit it in this kind of application.
Also I don't recall any race cars using this technology which is usually a sign
that the bling factor is higher than the performance factor.
Certainly they would help reduce unsprung weight but if no braking improvement could be had
I doubt that they could be cost justifiable.
So, good potential upgrade for Viper performance or merely good bench racing material?
I just checked the price for a Viper: about 4 grand. Yikes!
But I'd consider it if there was a marked improvement in braking ability
(which I doubt since I can lock 'em up anyway
indicating that Anti-lock would be the only real effective improvement.)
The tendency to gall, along with the inherent flex would lead me to say these are the ultimate poser rotor. For that price pickup a full stoptech kit or just go with the eradispeed rotors.
I found these brakes a LONG time ago and posted it up on LS1Tech.com because I was interested in them for drag racing...since they are so light. But comeon...look at those things!!! Durability Claim: "These are the last set of rotors you will ever have to buy!"....Because you'll be FUCKING DEAD when you try to stop from 150mph! Those things look like they'd fall apart in no time. I don't care what kind of material they are made from...titanium is suppose to be so strong, then why is everyone busting their titanium halfshafts on their vipers? I rest my case. Would you want something like that on your viper?
I don't care what kind of material they are made from...titanium is suppose to be so strong, then why is everyone busting their titanium halfshafts on their vipers? I rest my case. Would you want something like that on your viper?
That is a damned flawed argument. while I agree titanium is not a great material for high friction applications(brakes). There are different kinds of strengths. I am not going to give you lesson in metallurgy, but in the strength to weight department, (without getting ultra exotic) Titanium (that has been alloyed to match the application) is king.
If they worked I wouldn't care what they looked like.
Connecting rods and engine valves are made from the stuff as it is light and very strong. The galling tendency is taken care of in those applications by bearings, surface treatment, and lubrication: things that don't work well on brake rotors.
Titanium transfers heat poorly (low thermal conductivity) which might necessarily require the very thin rotors and multiple slots therein that they are portraying to work properly.
In any case high thermal conductivity is preferable in a brake rotor so I can't see how it could help one stop better. I've seen some of the rotors they use for pure drag racing made out of steel which appear to be about as thin but designed for one stop at a time only (not repeated sequential stops) so maybe these rotors might work for that. Titanium is stronger in shear than steel is and just as strong in tension so it should be stronger in similar sizing (excluding all the notches and "cooling" slots cut into it).
Titanium is also very sensitive to nicks and other surface imperfections causing stress risers and fatigue cracks. So you drop the rotor before putting it in the car and a small nick is imparted on the edge of the rotor leading to catastrophic failure through stress cracks eminating from there.
Or maybe even if the brake pad gouges the surface as we all know they do.
And yes, I went to the library and read up on titanium today
after having asked the questions.
Sounds like it is not a plausible material for brake rotors.
As a matter of fact it sounds like quite a dangerous endeavor for the non suspecting consumer.
So, any other input (especially if I'm wrong so that misinformation is not propogated)?
Maybe notching from rocks and other road debris
impacting upon the halfshafts causes stress risers
eventuall causing failure through stress fracturing?
Do these halfshafts have a rubberized or othe flexible protective coating
to prevent that kind of damage?
Anyways...since we have the Professors of metal here....I have a serious question....or actually wondering if you could enlighten me on a certain alloy. Awhile back I heard of a new material discovered that was something like 2 times lighter than Ti and 4 times stronger or something like that...it was titanium and possibly Zinc? I forgot what exactly, but i'm pretty sure it was Zinc. But i have not heard of this since. Nohsreg, do you have any knowledge on this?
Anyways...since we have the Professors of metal here....I have a serious question....or actually wondering if you could enlighten me on a certain alloy. Awhile back I heard of a new material discovered that was something like 2 times lighter than Ti and 4 times stronger or something like that...it was titanium and possibly Zinc? I forgot what exactly, but i'm pretty sure it was Zinc. But i have not heard of this since. Nohsreg, do you have any knowledge on this?
The bad Joke that all the engineer types will get ......
Yes, it's called Unabtanium.
{end bad joke}
There exists all manner of alloys with incredible capacities far exceeding what is generally commercially available. Hence the name "Exotic" and the price to match it. Titanium is not the end all of metals. Different metals (including alloys) have different properties. One metal might be able to endure a great deal of "pulling" but does not bend well. One metal might be able to with stand great twisting loads but is very heavy......you get the point.
For example Stainless steel(certain alloys, but again I am not giving a metallurgy lesson) is actually stronger than Titanium. Titanium is almost as light as aluminum, and almost as strong as strong steels, not the super wonder metal the uninitiated have come to believe it is.
As for a particular as to what you might be talking about, The new(not really) deal is what is known as Cermites. Ceramics molecularly bonded with metals. As well as various carbon technologies.
Vanishing point, I think you are taking the "Small nick from road debris stress riser" thing a bit far. At sufficient thickness that is not going to be an issue in component failure.
Titanium can warp and bend jsut like any other metal can. They all have different grades and tendencies... As far as heat, I'm not exactly sure, but I doubt titanium is the best material to use for rotors (as far as heat dissappation).
Titanium can warp and bend jsut like any other metal can. They all have different grades and tendencies... As far as heat, I'm not exactly sure, but I doubt titanium is the best material to use for rotors (as far as heat dissappation).
Not the best material, ceramics and carbons have proven better for high performance, But that is another thing I wanted to point out to Vanishing Point, Titanium does have better thermal dissipation qualities than Steel, about 50% better.
The titanium rotors are coated with a ceramic I believe. It is actually there to keep the heat and friction away from the titanium as it is not well suited for either. Cast iron is much better for friction, wear and heat transfer/capacity bu thas a weight penalty.
I think it may suit certain types of racing as there is definitely an advantage to taking 30-40 lbs of unsprung rotating mass off the car.
I hope you believe there is a direct correlation between marketing claims and stopping capacity. All a rotor is is a heatsink. Cast iron has done the trick for ages, but if you want to shell out $20GRRR for a brake kit, there are carbon kits out there...which really don't stop the car any quicker, but you lose the mass.
When it comes to components, it's usually best to look to the world of motorsports instead of the Fast & Furious Catalog.
ROLLMODEL - the metal that you are inquiring about is called scandium. it is a element that falls between calcium and titanium in the period table of elements. as a result, it is lighter in weight than titanium yet more pliable. it has a superplastic like flexibility. when a very small amount of scandium is mixed with regular grade non-titanium alloys it will provide a hardness and tensile strength that falls between titanium and regular grade alloys while at the same time eliminating all the bad traits of titanium. it takes 500 tons of raw grade mined material to make 5 pounds of scandium. the market price of scandium today currently is in excess of $7,000 a pound. the russians were the first to utilize this element in there mig fighter jets. smith & wessson are building revolver frames utilizing this new element mixed in very small quantities with aluminum alloy on some of there smaller pistols, etc. i ordered one of these 'airlite sc' pistols yesterday. my 3 inch barreled 7 shot revolver will have a mid sized scandium-aluminum alloy frame and titanium cylinder. it will be chambered to shoot .357 magnum and will weigh just 18 ounces.
sorry nohsreg2000, but once again i am just 1 step ahead of you.
Freddy, you are fucking idiot that doesn't understand half of what you just cut and pasted from a gun advertisement. Every time you open you mouth Jesus kills a puppy.
What the fuck does this mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Freddy
it has a superplastic like flexibility
Listen, I know you don't have a fucking education, so heres a clue, Don't take you scientific knowledge base from the Smith & Wesson marketing department.
I could pick apart every fucking thing you just laid out as the incoherent ramblings of someone that doesn't hold the Arizona state record for Metallurgical proficiency. The only person that could possibly be a bigger fucking idiot than you is someone that pays any attention to you.
Scandium is a metal that has a greater volume fraction of dispersoids to ALUMINUM, you fucking dickwad. And it does not significantly increase its melting point.
Thats what you want, Brake rotors with the melting point of Aluminum. And less hardness that Titanium or steel.
You want to be a step ahead of me, Fine, I need a usless piece of shit like you to eat the claymores
