Viper Spray:
A question - how does the liner move up, the head holds them down. It seems the only way would be if the gasket has deteriorated. The floating liner is an issue on both the Gen1 and Gen II, it is not a good idea to rotate engine with the heads off. I still cannot see any way the liner can move up if the gasket is incompressible.
Nohsreg2000:
I don't mean to rain on the parade, that is one sloppy mechanic. I hope his work is better than his organization. Let's hope he can find all those bolts that are laying loose and scratching your right toe box. I would have booted him.
Make sure you have him do a compression test prior to you accepting the car. Better yet have him do it while you are there. The range should be 145-155 on a Gen 1. Look for any deviation beyond the average. If you have a deviation of more than 10-15% on any one cylinder have him do a leak-down test. That should give you the source of the problem. These are all easy/cheap/quick checks on your engine. Better to find any problems before you accept the car. After you pay, there is little if not zero recourse.
I can only assume that the liner moves up the width of the gasket , then is stopped by the head. Which means that it would move a very short distance , but still be enough to call for an Arrow rebuild. Or could it pull it down, that seems worse to me. For water to enter the cylinder in the first place you would have a gasket that is allready coming apart. That is how it was explained to me.Check the picture above for a better idea.
Last edited by viper spray : September 22nd, 2006 at 11:43 AM.
One more clarification/question - the gasket (steel in all cases) sits on top of the liner (not to the outside of the liner)and the head on top of the gasket, thus, holding down the liner. There is going to have to be a decomposition of the gasket for any liner movement. Someone else may want to comment on this.
I still can't believe how sloppy that supposed viper tech was.
One more clarification/question - the gasket (steel in all cases) sits on top of the liner (not to the outside of the liner)and the head on top of the gasket, thus, holding down the liner. There is going to have to be a decomposition of the gasket for any liner movement. Someone else may want to comment on this.
I still can't believe how sloppy that supposed viper tech was.
its a car... not like a headgasket replacement is all that hard.. lose a bolt no big deal... just get new ones (and a real mechanic wouldnt use the same bolts, boltstretch is a bitch)
One more clarification/question - the gasket (steel in all cases) sits on top of the liner (not to the outside of the liner)and the head on top of the gasket, thus, holding down the liner. There is going to have to be a decomposition of the gasket for any liner movement. Someone else may want to comment on this.
I still can't believe how sloppy that supposed viper tech was.
its a car... not like a headgasket replacement is all that hard.. lose a bolt no big deal... just get new ones (and a real mechanic wouldnt use the same bolts, boltstretch is a bitch)
I agree dan. I am Not going to flame Jack B as I think he is offering a valid opinion. I just disagree. The Viper Tech in question Is as Good as they come,IMO. He was good enough to be the man (along with David Weaver) That worked on SVS's car at the V10 nats(the car that then went on to Win).
He and David Weaver are the only two Techs that people go to around here. I for one do not like to tell people how to do their jobs if the goal is reached.(and I own my own business with many employees). Had He made a mistake or delivered the car in a condition that was unsatisfactory He would have made it right. That is what his reputation is.
Hell, when I showed up to pick the car up he told me that It was not ready. Not because he had not finished the task on time but because their were a few things that were not up to his exacting standards. What does he do...He gives me the Keys to His personal car so that I can run some errands While he finishes.
He is a member in good standing at this site and has already posted on this thread. I am sure he will be along to lay out his credintials. You could not find a better tech or honest guy.
I'm not trying to create an issue, my point is there are bolts laying everywhere. The toe box (at least two dozen bolts on top of it without any protection) has to be scratched to shit. Obvious sloppy work habits don't stop with the unorganized bolts. I can't believe any top tuners would work in this manner. I really hope everything comes out well. I am serious though about him performing a compression check.
Bolt stretch - I believe you are wrong. You don't have to replace the bolts. There has been a lot of discussion on head bolts and some of it a little misleading. People are always talking about yielding versus non-yielding bolts and in the process are confusing some simple concepts.
The Gen 1's had a system where you took the bolt to a certain torque and then tightened so many degrees past that point. This is a bolt taken into the end of its elastic range (yield) and has to be replaced.
The Gen 2 is a whole different technology. The bolts on the Gen 2 are torqued to a specific value. These bolts are large relative to the torque being applied. They are not taken anywhere near their yield point, therefore, there is no technical reason to replace them when removing the heads. For those that doubt the validity of that comment talk to the Viper Wizard.
One more comment on a removing the heads. If it was so simple why until about a year ago did all engines go back to Arrow when there was a coolant problem. In many or most cases there wasn't a liner shift.
you ever rebuild a smallblock chevy? same things to look for... its just a simple pushrod engine. these engines are not F1 motors that rev well past 10k or anything. why send them to Arrow? check to see if anythign was changed in the motor that a "tech" wouldnt find? if it was so hard.. why can any viper tech replace the valves on a 03? same thing (actually more work) then a simple head gasket. btw, why reuse bolts when you already put 3k down on a headgasket job? kinda like being cheap and saveing the coolant when you remove the heads... just to put it back in at the end of the job.
About the workhabbits... some artist make the most beautfill things in the worst places where you wouldnt think they would be...
The US Aircraft carriers are dirty as hell when being built... but turn out great when finished...
I'd guess the actual reason earlier engines went back to Arrow yet Gen III fixes are being done at the dealerships has more to do with Mercedes owning Chrysler now than anything else...
from what i heard the reason gen 1 motors went back to arrow was because thats what chrysler wanted to do...arrow was the authorized rebuilder and they didn't want any techs to tear the motors apart so arrow could see what was going on with the motors...so all gen 1 motors at the time were removed and crated up and sent back to arrow for repair then shipped back to us to reinstall them...Len
Jack B. have you ever taken a motor apart??..it's obviously not a clean job or an easy one at that...if ya look real close at the bolts on the so called "toe area" ya talk about is actually the a/c evaporator box.. you will see a dark rag under there and magnetic trays all around holding bolts and such in areas where they go back into...after they were cleaned up....the pics were taken jus as i finished removing the heads...not as i was cleaning things up...i was looking to see if there was anymore damage or any other probs...the it was time to clean up the area and get ready for the reinstall of the new gaskets after cleaning up the carbon off the top of the pistons and in the combustion chambers...
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