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DIY stand alone engine management. Megasquirt 3 MS3

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DIY stand alone engine management. Megasquirt 3 MS3
Old July 28th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #1
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DIY stand alone engine management. Megasquirt 3 MS3

I've been contemplating installing a MS3 in the Viper for some time since I wasn't 100% happy with the VEC 3 and factory PCM. I have run the Megasquirt 1 on a turbo explorer, and a twin turbo SBC 300zx about 5 years ago. The MS3 is light years ahead of the MS1 though, and a lot has changed.

It wasn't until last year that support for the Gen1 cam and crank wheels were added, so that is when it really got on my radar. Gen2 has had support for a while. We have Tony Finley to thank for doing most of the testing on his car and helping the developers fine tune Gen1 support.

Tony contacted me last fall and was wondering if I was interested in beta testing his PnP Megasquirt 3 setup for Gen1 Vipers. It was a great offer, but I wasn't ready to make the switch. Last month, a friend of mine pulled his MS3X from his supra and went with an AEM. (because his tuner didn't "like" the Megasquirt, but ended up melting the pistons anyway) He made me an offer for the box and wiring harnesses that I couldn't refuse.

Even though I wasn't purchasing a PnP kit from Tony, he was awesome enough to answer some of my questions. I like wiring and understanding what is going on with the ECM, so buying the basic MS3X and DIYing the necessary circuits for sequential V10 support, knock sensors, and other things doesn't bother me. If you think this is over your head, I strongly advise you to go with Tony's PnP kit.

Info on MS3 here MegaSquirt-3 Engine Management System

Where to buy Megasquirts and parts MegaSquirt | Engine Management System | Electronic Fuel Injection - DIYAutoTune.com

Tony's website Home - Megasquirt based custom motorcycle ECU's and acc.

Software for tuning EFI Analytics TunerStudio | tunerstudio.com

I had my car out today running fuel only, and it is an amazing difference in driveability. Autotune has come a LONG way from MS1 days, just set my AFR target map, drive around and let it tune my map, even in boost!
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Old July 28th, 2013, 04:57 PM   #2
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Here is a shot of the MS3X:



It has a DB9 and USB connector for communication with a laptop and a DB15 for extra inputs/outputs that you DIY in the case. The SD card slot is for datalogging on the fly with no laptop. I have a second DB9 connector on this end for another card that has an additional 4 injector drivers and ignition drivers on it. I actually only need 2 extra injector drivers, but these extra outputs may come in handy.

The other end:



The top connector is the MS3X connector (ie extra card) and the bottom is the standard MS3 connector. The MS3X card adds 8 sequential spark and injector outputs, cam sensor input, and a few other things. The small round port is the map sensor.
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Old July 28th, 2013, 07:10 PM   #3
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Wiring diagrams for reference.





Since I didn't want to jump in head first, I decided to slowly integrate the MS3 into the car, and eventually phase out the factory stuff completely.

Both the cam and crank sensors are hall efffect, so I just tapped into the signals going to the factory PCM. Once the factory PCM is removed from the car, I will have to feed 5V and ground from the megasquirt also. The crank signal requires a 1kohm pullup resister to be added on the main board, and the cam sensor signal does not. There are 2 trim pots for both inputs that need to be adjusted to get a stable signal. This is a little bit of trial and error.

Visit the ignition setup page and set up the megasquirt for hall effect sensors.
Megasquirt-3 MS3 Tach input and ignition outputs

So, if everything went ok, you should have an RPM signal in TunerStudio. Next, I wanted coolant temp, intake air temp, and throttle position. For TPS, we can just tap the signal wire since the factory PCM already provides the sensor with a ground and 5volt reference. For IAT, I installed a gm open element sensor in the charge piping for faster response. Just need to wire it to a MS ground and hook it to IAT input.

The coolant sensor is giving me some grief right now, so I will update it when I have it figured out. Basically temp sensors need bias resistors, and since the factory PCM already has a bias resistor inside, I removed R7 from the MS mainboard, but am still having an issure calibrating it correctly.

Next was wiring in the output from my WBO2 sensor, and selecting the appropriate WB from the list in TunerStudio.

So far, the stock computer still controls everything, we're just monitoring the essential inputs needed to control fuel/spark.

The next step requires cutting (or unplugging the injectors from the VEC in my case) and wiring up 10 injectors. The MSX card only has 8 injector outputs, so we need two more. The main board has 2 injector drivers on it, but they are different drivers, and we don't want to mix and match them. This board uses the same drivers as the ms3x board, so I bought it.

4-Channel Ignition/Injection Driver Board

He has some assembled ones with the DB9 built on it so you can mount it to the end plate with the usb plug.

Some info on V10 support
Megasquirt-3 MS3 V10 and V12 support

So far so good!
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Old July 28th, 2013, 10:07 PM   #4
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Any special considerations for odd fire and wasted spark ?
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Old July 29th, 2013, 04:57 AM   #5
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Bad ass. The threads for DIY tuning are mostly nill. It would be nice to have support threads. Congrats on the tuning system. Looking forward to the updates.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 10:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gage View Post
Any special considerations for odd fire and wasted spark ?
Nope, just a couple settings in TunerStudio. The MS3X has 8 logic level outputs, and the jbperf board I added gives me another 4 circuits. I could run 10 LS coils in sequential if I wanted to, but for now I plan to use 5 of the MS3X ignition outputs for wasted spark.

In saying that though, to use our coils, you need an ignitor box between the MS and coils as they draw too much current. There are a few different options, but my friend had a 2JZ GTE ignitor which he gave to me which will work. It has 6 inputs/outputs which is more than enough. You don't need the ignitor box for LS style coils and you could run them wasted spark or sequential.

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Originally Posted by Disturbed 01 View Post
Bad ass. The threads for DIY tuning are mostly nill. It would be nice to have support threads. Congrats on the tuning system. Looking forward to the updates.
Thanks, the learning curve can be STEEP, but it really isn't that bad once you get into the groove.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 10:48 AM   #7
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This is what I have bought so far:

Complete MS3X
MegaSquirt-III EMS System with MS3X Expansion V3.57 - Assembled DIYAutoTune.com

Both wiring harnesses. The wires are labeled every 6 inches.
8' MegaSquirt Electronic Fuel Injection Wiring Harness (MS1 / MS2 / MS3 Ready DIYAutoTune.com
8' MegaSquirt Wiring Harness for MS3X DIYAutoTune.com

IAT sensor
GM Open Element IAT Sensor with Pigtail DIYAutoTune.com

Add on board for up to 4 extra injector and ignition outputs
4-Channel Ignition/Injection Driver Board

I have ordered another add on board with two VR circuits so that I can hook up the speed sensor from the trans and sometime add a tone wheel to the front wheels for traction control.
Zeal Engineering Daughterboard with Dual VR Conditioners DIYAutoTune.com

I am strongly considering just adding a GM coolant sensor so I don't have to mess with the dodge one.
GM Closed Element CLT / IAT Sensor with Pigtail DIYAutoTune.com

I forsee this working out well, but I don't guarantee there won't be issues to overcome.
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Old July 29th, 2013, 11:07 AM   #8
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I'm curious if you get secondary benefits too, like improved HP/MPG if the hardware is faster than the 92-95 PCM
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Old July 30th, 2013, 05:38 PM   #9
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Dont hesitate on the coolant sensor. The sensors range is already pre-programmed in tuner studio and makes life much easier on initial startup. I recently put an ms3x behind a 1jz in an s chassis running full sequential spark/fuel with the oem ignitor/coils and wanted to tackle installing one behind a viper but you beat me to it. Go with the v3.57 board...the solder is perfect and all options are pre Installed and activating them is as simple as placing a jumper across two pins. Also buy a good run of the shielded wire and terminate accordingly if youre running a two wire crank trigger. Otherwise the signal through the trigger logger will never make any sense no matter how much you adjust the pots to clean it up.
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Old August 5th, 2013, 06:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Dont hesitate on the coolant sensor. The sensors range is already pre-programmed in tuner studio and makes life much easier on initial startup.
Yea, I added one near the factory sensor this weekend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWhiteRun View Post
I recently put an ms3x behind a 1jz in an s chassis running full sequential spark/fuel with the oem ignitor/coils and wanted to tackle installing one behind a viper but you beat me to it. Go with the v3.57 board...the solder is perfect and all options are pre Installed and activating them is as simple as placing a jumper across two pins.
Fun project, and yes, the 3.57 board is very clean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWhiteRun View Post
Also buy a good run of the shielded wire and terminate accordingly if youre running a two wire crank trigger. Otherwise the signal through the trigger logger will never make any sense no matter how much you adjust the pots to clean it up.
The crank wire in the pre fabbed wiring harness is shielded, but the cam signal wire is not.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 12:38 PM   #11
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Well, I've been running fuel only for a couple of months and it has been fantastic. It's nice to run closed loop with my WBO2.

I did give spark control a go this weekend, and ended up with disappointing results. The good news is I added connectors so I could switch between the MS3 and factory PCM/VEC for timing. With the MS3 firing the Viper coils through the 2JZGTE ignitor, it fired right up and sounded decent. I shut it down, pulled #1 plug, found TDC, marked the balancer, and then made a timing pointer. This will be 0* for setting base timing.

I used -5 as my timing offset in the MS3 settings to get the light spot on while commanding 0* of advance.

Everything was going great, until I tried to drive it. It has a mean hitch when you open the throttle too fast and was breaking up around 3500. I played with the settings, mainly Dwell, but still isn't good enough. It breaks up after about 10psi and still has a hitch when pushing on the throttle. I feel the Supra ignitor is too weak, so I will probably order 5 BIP373 drivers and build my own "ignitor" board.

Bosch BIP373 Coil Driver Mod Kit DIYAutoTune.com

Just to make sure, I plugged my stock ECM/VEC combo back in to run spark and it breaks loose at 16psi doing 160kph, so it has to be the ignitor. Should have known better than to use Toyota junk.. lol
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Old October 1st, 2013, 07:29 PM   #12
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So I played around with my scope a bit tonight...

Stock ignition at around 3k rpm, stock dwell is 4ms.



2JZ ignitor at 2MS around 3k rpm, pretty stable, but I think spark gets blown out at high boost because of not enough dwell.



2JZ ignitor at 4 MS around 3k rpm, but it's breaking up like crazy, the dwell is dropping off.



Guess the 2JZ ignitor doesn't like high dwell settings.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 08:11 PM   #13
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keep it up, love the info Andy!
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 06:18 PM   #14
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I used the same ignitor but was experiencing break up much earlier along with the ignitor overheating due to the dwell. Switching from full COP to wasted COP seemed to help out and I believe it's due to the jz ignitor was setup for wasted spark as well. I'm attaching the settings that worked out the best for what I assembled. The most dwell I could get out of it was 2.4ms and a max spark duration of 1.0ms, with a cranking dwell of 6.0ms. These options allowed for spark up to 18psi on a .028 plug gap before experiencing blow out....it should work for you as well. I spent a few weeks getting the jz ignitor settings as good as they could get and I do not mind sharing. In my opinion, some heat sinked logic level GM coil packs would be the best solution to get spark in order.

Last edited by CWhiteRun; October 2nd, 2013 at 06:31 PM.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 06:38 PM   #15
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Another thing....we could get the car to rev smoothly past 3.5k rpm without enabling the software noise filter. Pull up your trigger logger and you should be able to see the noise floor move upwards the higher the engine revs. The grounding structure on the car was overdone as well and I chocked it up to having something to do with the way the jz ignitor works. Try enabling this with the following settings punched in and see if it helps as it worked out great for me.
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Old October 2nd, 2013, 08:04 PM   #16
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Thanks for the tips, I may play around with it some more..

Had some fun tonight though....

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Old January 7th, 2014, 10:49 AM   #17
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Small update, installed a 4 bar map sensor and dual knock sensor board this last week. It's not that I want to run 40+ psi, but I wanted more than 21psi.

MapDaddy
MapDaddy 4 Bar MAP Sensor with Barometric Correction DIYAutoTune.com

Knock sensor board
MS3 Knock Module Kit DIYAutoTune.com

I have some Bosch knock sensors from a couple Subaru motors that I'm going to play with. They are supposed to be a wideband knock sensor as opposed to one that is specifically tuned for a specific motor.

Also picked up 5 Ignition coil drivers to replace the 2JZ ignitor box with.

Bosch BIP373 Coil Driver Mod Kit DIYAutoTune.com
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Old January 7th, 2014, 01:13 PM   #18
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Impressive. I have friends from the LS world who swear by their MS3 setup and wanted me to try it on my Paxton GTS.

I don't have the skill and know-how you do though to troubleshoot through issues so I chose the beaten path with the SCT.

Thanks for updating this thread and showing your progress. It's an interesting read.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 01:18 PM   #19
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I get the principles behind the design, the inputs/outputs, etcetera... and the diagrams are great...but pin soldering kicks my ass. I guess I don't have the dexterity to do that level of fine soldering. Just trying to do a mini 8 pin din for the stock stereo cable proved impossible for me. Might have well had boxing gloves on and a blow torch.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 09:21 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EllowViper View Post
I get the principles behind the design, the inputs/outputs, etcetera... and the diagrams are great...but pin soldering kicks my ass. I guess I don't have the dexterity to do that level of fine soldering. Just trying to do a mini 8 pin din for the stock stereo cable proved impossible for me. Might have well had boxing gloves on and a blow torch.
The premade primary MS & MS3x cables available for the MS make it simple....a person may spend another $150 over someone that builds their own, but it saves so much time.

12&#39 MegaSquirt Wiring Harness (MS1 / MS2 / MS3 Ready) DIYAutoTune.com
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