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DIY stand alone engine management. Megasquirt 3 MS3

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Old May 5th, 2017, 08:53 AM   #61
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Old May 5th, 2017, 10:31 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEPM1 View Post
I'll post mine if you post yours
Fix your wiring issue before you make any .msq changes....pointless otherwise. You should be able to use the .msq I posted on page 2 of this thread and just apply your particular project properties and change the trigger config in ignition options / wheel decoder from "viper v10" to "viper v10 gen 1" in the spark mode drop down menu.

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Old May 6th, 2017, 12:32 AM   #63
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Hmmm. I don't see any wiring issue here. Do you?
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Old May 6th, 2017, 12:39 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEPM1 View Post
Hmmm. I don't see any wiring issue here. Do you?
LOL why are the triggers going low instead of going high....weird.

EDIT: Could be setting related though. Turn noise filtering off...skip pulses up to 3.....set the triggers to going high/rising edge on both then take a screen shot again.

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Originally Posted by BEPM1 View Post
Hmmm. I don't see any wiring issue here. Do you?
...and actuall yes....you see how your spacing gets closer and closer....that's caused by noise. If you have the TPS, ckp, and cmp wired that way with the sensors ground leg connected to the engine block and not sensor ground then there is an issue...and it may be the only issue stopping you from having a quick and clean sync.

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Old May 6th, 2017, 12:43 AM   #65
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looks like you're seeing a cmp reset every two peaks on the Ckp....as the chinese say something wong. did you correct your sensor ground issue? All the engines senor grounds go to the "sensor ground" pin on the MS3....then all the ground wires from the MS3 bundle together at one common point on the engine.

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Old May 6th, 2017, 08:00 PM   #66
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I don't have a ground issue to fix. TPS, CKP and CMP return ground wires go to the sensor ground pin on the MS3 main board. My shield drain wire goes to a dedicated ground. Are you familiar with the construction of 3 conductor shielded cable?

The triggers go low because that is how it works. The signal is high until the sensor sees a notch, then it goes low for the duration of the notch, then high again until the next notch.

The space change is not caused by noise. It is caused because the engine starts at rest, begins to rotate on the starter then eventually runs so the revolutions go from zero to about 800 RPM. Hence the space difference.

There is no CMP reset. That is the pattern of the CMP notches on the truck engines, and to the best of my knowledge, the Gen1 Viper engines. Four notches, two spaced close together and two almost 180 cam degrees apart.
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Old May 6th, 2017, 10:36 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEPM1 View Post
I don't have a ground issue to fix. TPS, CKP and CMP return ground wires go to the sensor ground pin on the MS3 main board. My shield drain wire goes to a dedicated ground. Are you familiar with the construction of 3 conductor shielded cable?
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Originally Posted by BEPM1 View Post
I suppose that I could have noise someplace, but it doesn't appear on any of my logs. The other thing is that for CKP, CMP and TPS I am using dedicated 3 wire shielded cable. The drain wire is connected to a dedicated ground (not current carrying) that terminates at the common ground point on the engine block.
EDIT: I copy what you're saying now...and Maybe I'm not familiar with the shielding of the three wire....why connect it to engine ground to clean up noise being generated predominantly through it....I was under the impression that the shielding lay not connected to anything on the sensor end and the other connects to the ecu metal framework or wired into sensor ground of the ecu. Wiring the actual shielding itself direct to sensor ground cleaned up the most noise for me.

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The triggers go low because that is how it works. The signal is high until the sensor sees a notch, then it goes low for the duration of the notch, then high again until the next notch.
The ms3x does not know if the state is high or low...just monitors for changes and it works how you instruct it to work. If you go to TDC cylinder one and can watch the triggers as they rotate through their first pass then you would know which would need to be set to rising edge and / or falling edge. If this procedure is not done then you're guessing and startup will be what you're describing that you have until you guess correctly or physically verify.

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The space change is not caused by noise. It is caused because the engine starts at rest, begins to rotate on the starter then eventually runs so the revolutions go from zero to about 800 RPM. Hence the space difference.
I was under the impression this was the running trigger log shot. Mind posting one up of the engine just running a steady rpm for roughly 10 counts on your cmp....that may help narrow down the problem...also the gen 2 spins roughly 350-420rpm when cranking and setting your cranking rpm out of range can affect startup as well. What does the bottom red line in your trigger logger represent?

Edit: Try switching your ignition input capture to Rising edge instead of falling edge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEPM1 View Post
There is no CMP reset. That is the pattern of the CMP notches on the truck engines, and to the best of my knowledge, the Gen1 Viper engines. Four notches, two spaced close together and two almost 180 cam degrees apart.
Reset is a term that is applied to which ever device inputs the signal that signifies the end of one 720* rotation cycle and the beginning of another....usually applied to the CMP when using two trigger wheels.

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Old May 12th, 2017, 07:28 PM   #68
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Clean Gen 2 trigger pic for reference

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Old May 13th, 2017, 11:39 PM   #69
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I didn't see any description of what this log is of, but I assume that it is a Gen2 Viper with the 10 notch crank trigger and a "half moon " cam trigger taken in the running state. The cam trigger is completely different than the Gen 1 and truck trigger which has four notches.

One other thing that I am quite sure of is that the Gen 1 and truck PCMs just recognize the falling edge of both crank and cam triggers. The Gen 2 Viper PCM recognizes both the rising and falling edge of the cam trigger, as illustrated by the log. By doing this it can determine the camshaft phase depending on when it sees a rising or falling edge and still establish synch within one crank revolution.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 07:27 AM   #70
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This thread makes me want to MS my pokey NA. Thanks for all the info!
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Old May 16th, 2017, 08:01 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEPM1 View Post
I didn't see any description of what this log is of, but I assume that it is a Gen2 Viper with the 10 notch crank trigger and a "half moon " cam trigger taken in the running state. The cam trigger is completely different than the Gen 1 and truck trigger which has four notches.

One other thing that I am quite sure of is that the Gen 1 and truck PCMs just recognize the falling edge of both crank and cam triggers. The Gen 2 Viper PCM recognizes both the rising and falling edge of the cam trigger, as illustrated by the log. By doing this it can determine the camshaft phase depending on when it sees a rising or falling edge and still establish synch within one crank revolution.
Your assumption is correct. This is the log from my Gen 2.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 09:32 AM   #72
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What timing are you guys running up top on E85 or 93 octane?

I put the car on the dyno last night for the first time, and we were having massive issues with spinning so it was hard to tell gains because i was blowing the tires off.

We street tuned on 93, checked the plugs, no signs of detonation. Switched to E85, street tuned again, and did NOT touch the timing. So I was assuming we should be able to add some more once I'm on the dyno and could verify i was seeing a good increase.

We added 1 degree on the dyno and saw basically no increase. So we backed it off assuming it was at the edge, but I'm confused how that could be if I wasn't detonating on the 93 with the same timing.

We were at like 21.5 degrees. Is that high or really low from other's experiences?

EDIT: I just saw this other timing thread on here, but would still be curious on your guy's opinions. People seem to be all over the place from low teens all the way up into the 30's. It's hard to say because I can't verify everyone confirmed they checked and set their timing to 0 at TDC.

http://www.viperalley.com/forum/vipe...on-timing.html
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Old May 16th, 2017, 10:46 PM   #73
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Stock ignition timing maps on just about any engine since the advent of EFI seem to be almost impossible to get.

I spent a lot of time trying to find out what the stock timing for the truck V10 is with no success. I ended up putting together some hardware and software to make actual running observations and kind of figure out what it was from the data logs of the observations. I won’t go into how I actually did it here; because it was quite involved, but if anyone is really interested I don’t mind sharing that. Bottom line is that I think what I have put together is pretty close to the stock ignition map for the 1995 Dodge Ram 2500 V10 truck engine.

Just how this relates to any of the Viper engines I don’t really know, but at least it is something.

Just for comparison the truck engine is the same 488 CID (8.0L) displacement, uneven firing V10 configuration as the Gen1 Vipers, but that is probably where the similarity ends. It has a cast iron block and heads, has a compression ratio of 8.4:1, runs on 87 octane fuel and probably has a much milder cam profile.

The application is in a 3/4 ton 4 wheel drive truck. It has a curb weight of 5,940 lbs. It is designed for a gross vehicle weight of 8,800 lbs and is designed to pull a trailer with a gross combined weight of truck and trailer of up to 19,000 lbs. According to the factory specifications the engine produces more torque and more horsepower throughout the whole RPM range than the 12 valve Cummins turbo diesel of the same year. (they didn't mention that it burns twice as much fuel to do it though). The 90 degree uneven firing V10 with a single exhaust and a couple of glass pack mufflers in tandem produces an exhaust note is positively orgasmic. It has a nice roll at idle and low speed, similar to, but not as pronounced as an uneven firing V6 or an even firing V8. The big difference is when the revs increase. Instead of sounding coarse, or "jack hammerish" like the V6 or some V8s, it just evens right out into a rush of smooth, awesome sound and power.

The main strength of this engine is its torque. According to published information it produces about 400 ft/lbs of it at 1000 RPM, 450 ft/lbs @ 2400 RPM and 390 ft/lbs @ 4000 RPM. Peak HP is 300 @4100 RPM. The Hemholtz resonator intake manifold is tuned for ~1700 RPM and ~3300 RPM and is quite noticeable.

I have my fuel and spark tables dialed in pretty good now. I don't use any acceleration enrichment because I have a fairly smooth driving style. At low loads I cruise with an AFR of ~18:1 with no complaints from the engine. After ~80 KPA manifold pressure I transition to ~13:1 at ~90 KPA. I can ease on the throttle at any speed and load and all I get is pure pleasure, everything is effortless. I can shift into 5th gear (overdrive) at about 1100 RPM and 60 KpH and just stay there in all but the hilliest of conditions. It is a truly remarkable piece of engineering and totally wasted when coupled to an automatic transmission.

I have attached 4 screens shots for anyone who may be interested.

“Billy Initial Spark Table” is the result of my testing for what I believe is quite close to the stock ignition map. I thought this was very conservative at full load, but I went with it anyway.

“Billy Advance Added” was the map I used after I had gotten my fuel dialled in pretty good and I figured I’d try adding some advance at high load. That didn’t work! I got pinging from about 2500 RPM and up. There was never any pinging with the initial map.

“Billy Current Spark” is the ignition map I am using now and probably won’t change it. There is no pinging and if I am leaving a bit of power on the table I’ll sacrifice that for reliability.

“Billy AFR1” is my target AFR table. I run open loop only but my datalogs show that I am real close to the targets on the areas that really count.

Oh, I should mention that I road tune only. My “load dyno” is a long steady grade of about 8% so I can gat a pretty good test of speed and load conditions. I also don’t use EGR.

As I mentioned before, I don’t know just how much of this if any relates to the Viper engines, but it is something and I hope it will be of some help to somebody.
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