Out of curiosity, Why are all the supercharged guys on each others throats? Its like a tuner war over at the VCA. As usual its between the Heffner and the DLM camp. How come the NOS guys don't do the same thing? or even the TT guys.
Not to ruffle the already sensitive SC brothers feathers - but I'll give my $.02.
Why the SC guys are on each other throats??? Seems most SC guys are focused more on their dyno numbers than putting down a number at the track. Most SC cars are putting down 200+ more rwhp than their NA and NOS equivalents and running slower times at the track. So the SC guys bash each other over .02 differences on ET's to hold the place of 3 quickest Viper power adder. At least Heffner was able to recently beat out the quickest NA number to bring SC cars out from last place at the track.
The TT guys don't talk smack - because until the past couple of months only Hennessey was putting out customer driven TT cars. There has been no competition.
The NO2 guys used to talk smack all the time - especially between the Texas and Florida camps. Then people just started letting their time slips do the talking and now no one is really impressed unless you are running 9.75 or quicker.
Seems to me like a whole lot could be settled at the track on Dec 7th in San Antonio. Looks like both Hennessey (TT and NA cars) and RSI (Paxton, N20 cars) are bringing a bunch of quick/high HP Vipers to the track. What other SC cars are in??
Just a side note - anyone notice all the 900+ rwhp Paxton cars RSI is bringing??
ok, I'll jump in here now too, I have done a lot of research and feel pretty condifident on our ability to do a twin turbo set up for less than $20K. The extras, fit and finish are what really add to the costs as well as the engineering time to place things for serviceability and maintenance. Hell, the turbos, wastegates, upgraded fuel system parts, innercooler, ect (all best name brand stuff) add up to about $10K. Old carpenter rule is to just double the parts for labor. And regarding the extra injectors- I think they do this as its easier to tune the car (also to pass emissions) at idle with the stock set up. then only on boost do you need the extra fuel. Its just a tuning issue. I talked with a Seimens Enginner and he mentioned if you are jumping from 25# injectors to 65# injectors the cycle time off boost is going to be hard to manage as the new injectors will have way too much capactiy. (kind of like trying to open and close floodgates quickly) I debated on using extra injectors, but decided a to stick with 55# injectors and limit Hp goals to 750 rearwheel. What I find so funny is the protective attitude some guys have, like this is rocket science.
ok, I'll jump in here now too, I have done a lot of research and feel pretty condifident on our ability to do a twin turbo set up for less than $20K. The extras, fit and finish are what really add to the costs as well as the engineering time to place things for serviceability and maintenance. Hell, the turbos, wastegates, upgraded fuel system parts, innercooler, ect (all best name brand stuff) add up to about $10K. Old carpenter rule is to just double the parts for labor. And regarding the extra injectors- I think they do this as its easier to tune the car (also to pass emissions) at idle with the stock set up. then only on boost do you need the extra fuel. Its just a tuning issue. I talked with a Seimens Enginner and he mentioned if you are jumping from 25# injectors to 65# injectors the cycle time off boost is going to be hard to manage as the new injectors will have way too much capactiy. (kind of like trying to open and close floodgates quickly) I debated on using extra injectors, but decided a to stick with 55# injectors and limit Hp goals to 750 rearwheel. What I find so funny is the protective attitude some guys have, like this is rocket science.
Sounds like a good plan man. Be careful b/c dipshit is lurking somewhere and he will try and tell you how you are doing it all wrong and you should do it his way. Matt [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]
It's funny we have two of the best viper tuners in HEFFNER AND DLM but their customers keep putting them on the spot. I would have no problem using either tuner or some others. The horsepower war brings out the worst in the car owner not the tuners. You never see Jason or Doug on this board bad mouthing each other and i assume they talk to each other, maybe the customers could take a page out of the tuners book. Competition is good because it push us to higher levels but lets keep it civil and thank the tuners for a job well done as oppose to throwing mud.
Anthony 98gts, good points as well, I think everybody need to show up at the Dec 7th shootout and finish the year with a BANG!!! Settle this once and for all.
As for the other camps showing up, don't forget the Roe cars from DW. I believe he might have a strong showing at the event.
LET THE GAMES BEGIN [img]/images/graemlins/gr_driving3.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/gr_driving3.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/gr_driving3.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/gr_driving3.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/gr_driving3.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/gr_driving3.gif[/img]
This should help the angry ones amongst you, real easy to get and you can probably quit eating so many Rolaids. [img]/images/graemlins/laughing.gif[/img]
The whole thing becomes a circus - but it has certainly been entertaining!
Fact is there is a bit of history behind the DLM vs Heffner customers and neither of the actual tuners are very pleased or impressed by it I'm sure - I know I wouldn't be.
There are two sources of rumours to discredit the other:
1 - the rumour mill that gets taken out of context. A car is seen on side of road or dead at a track, someone finds out what they think is the problem, and the story develops until in the end - the tuner is accused of being useless and out of his depth because of this or that.... total BS and out of proportion! Everyone who has ever built more than a few hard out engines knows there will be the odd problem. But rumours stick, so some tuners go to extraordinary lengths to hide any problems, while others just take it in their stride, fix it, learn and move on. Guess who then are seen as having the most problems? Yeah the one who doesn't hide them. No flame on the other - Rolls Royce has used that philosophy for generations and it has served them well and helped to keep their mystic and resale up. But RR certainly did have problems - its just not many got to know.
2 - I strongly suspect there are actually one or two people fabricating evidence to discredit a particular tuner. I'm not sure if they are actually a customer of either even - maybe an ex customer of one - I do not know - but someone must have pissed in their beer. I think it has got beyond just the stories floating around that gather a life of their own.... most of which can be quickly sorted out if you go to the source and get first hand info from the tuner directly involved. I actually think there is someone fabricating evidence, or using facts to build a false case around it - same effect. I can't elaborate because I have no proof and it is not my crusade.
But it's that kind of thing that will build bitterness and the BS we see.
All I've got to say is that everything done in darkness will eventually be brought out into the light - and when that happens there's going to be some red faces.
The best thing the tuners can do is stay out of it and do what they do best. Which is exactly what they are doing and top marks to both. Their track records will overcome all the BS, and the false acusers will eventually be talking to themselves because no one else will be listening.
While the two camps duke it out - RSI is likely to come up quietly from behind and surprise everyone - they certainly build some of the toughest n/a motors so I wouldn't be surprised to see them make it a threesome in the above 800rwhp SC tuner list (that's makes more than one). They also know how to run a 9.
As has been stated - the whole stand off is splitting hairs - both camps have great cars that go very fast and are proving reliable right now.
Both offer their own unique features and advantages and which is best comes down to whose shoes you stand in - there's no one answer as value is in the mind of the customer, and there are as many minds as customers, all with their own opinion. The customer is right.
I got to say that based on numbers and looks alone i think that smokin got a winner in his heffner package. It is a stunning package which clearly produces great numbers. Everyone has to decide for themselves if it's worth the extra money to get the looks combined with the function (and we all know that is the expensive part).
if this would just be about Horsepower divided by $$$ then this discussion would be entirely different, but this discussion covers many dimensions; serviceability, reliability, build quality, looks, function etc. etc. so that there is legitimate beliefs between the various camps. since the sticker price is significant it is obvious to me that once you made your decision you are going to defend it and the underlying rationale behind it. And therein lies the sources of disagreement.
I've learned plenty from this thread. I actually think there is plenty of good points made and i look forward to hearing more, especially from the people with first hand experience.
While the two camps duke it out - RSI is likely to come up quietly from behind and surprise everyone - they certainly build some of the toughest n/a motors so I wouldn't be surprised to see them make it a threesome in the above 800rwhp SC tuner list (that's makes more than one). They also know how to run a 9.
I would like to say RSI could possibily do it.... because they have some of the best drivers in their camp.
Cudaman
Macedo tuned with Roe S/C 10.3 @ V-10 Nationals
Holy shit! I just cruised over there.....ITS A DAMN WAR OVER THERE! :nuts: [img]/images/graemlins/ar15firing.gif[/img] :bonk: [img]/images/graemlins/flipa.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/bootyshake.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/gasthrower.gif[/img]
I talked to a guy who, I think, had the exact right idea.
Whenever someone spends this kind of money on an SC kit, they want to feel confident of their decision. It's natural to bash the competition because, in their minds, it makes them feel like they made the right choice.
Mike, Do you feel that is also why some Heffner guys are upset with blownGTS ?
p.s. Any word on the package I sent you ?
As Mike stated if the numbers come out right. Then proably yes they would have some ruffled feathers so to speak.
I'm happy with my SC kit from ROE and the numbers it produced at a fraction of the cost. :thumb:
Hell, I'm not knocking ayone SC kit.
If you can do it better than the next at a cheaper price the more power to you. :thumb:
No, youre wrong here. This is where many of us differ. I personally do not believe that "cheaper is better". You do get what you pay for. If ALL you were looking at on a supercharger kit was the final HP number then that may be your mentality, but if you are a die-hard hot-rodder that looks at the whole package, then your mentality may be different. Moreover, if you arent counting your last penny and there isnt much of a difference between spending $10K or $18K then who cares?
What about the cosmetics of the system? Im talking shit a true hot-rodder, enthusiast, or even engineer would notice....quality of welds (how the bead is layed, how even are the welds, etc). What kind of fittings and line are used on the system? (This shit is NOT cheap. My entier fuel, oiling, and cooling system, is pretty much ALL done in TAPPED an fittings, from a -6AN to -10AN lines). if there is a tensioner, how easy is it to adjust? How "Clean" is the overall look of the system? What extras are included? (I didnt just get a blower, I got a new cooling system, modified oiling system, warranty, best tech support, etc). How reliable is the system long term? How streetable is the car? Does it have ANY detonation...EVER? (me, nope). What kind of fasteners does the tuner use? Plain stainless? ARP? Steel? nickel Plated? Is the system polished? Chrome plated? How customized is the system? Do you have to redo some of the customization yourself later? How does the airbox look? is there an airbox? IF it has fuel rails, how are they mounted? sheet metal bent up brackets? Or Billet brackets? How well is the plumbing routed? how well is the fuel system mounted? How is the fuel picked up? What kind of bypass/blow off valve does the system use? Does the car run hot? The list just goes on and on and on.....
Start adding all these parts in, the "extras" and youll quickly find any system priced closer to a Heffner or DLM system. Is that for everyone? Nope. Some people are perfectly happy buying a corvette as well. Some people are perfectly happy having a hot rod, but others will spring for the chrome tubular A-arms and coil over suspension. The budget guy will be happy with the same overall look with leaf springs and "cleaned up" originals.
I think responding to this post will only start something that will
A. drag me down to your level
B. Perhaps make you see things in a different way
C. Give you the pleasure of reading your own pathetic attempts of smack which are only 1st grade insults with fancy adverbs mixed in.
Never mud wrestle with pig, you'll both get dirty and the pig will enjoy it...
:nuts: 
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