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Lets talk Engine Block(Different Gen's)

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Lets talk Engine Block(Different Gen's)
Old January 28th, 2013, 12:54 PM   #1
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Lets talk Engine Block(Different Gen's)

Say you are building a max effort car. What block is the best, and why? Do certain gen's have better oil pumps, water pumps etc.. I know the gen 2 like to break the plastic impeller on the water pump. Bore size not a concern. Just strongest block and best cooling. Cranks not really a problem, plan to go billet crank. But, would like to know the differences in cranks if anyone know the ins and outs. I searched for hours last night and never found my answers on any of the forums.

And Oiling, dont really want to go dry sump. So is there a aftermarket oil pump? What years has the best oiling, from what i have read, the gen 4 has the best oiling bc of the new pick up design and pan.

Thanks, Jared
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Old January 28th, 2013, 01:04 PM   #2
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Gen 4s by far have the best oiling because of pan and the gear pump! Arrow has them spinning to 8000rpms with the proper cam and lifters... What's wrong with going with a dry sump if you are going all out?
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Old January 28th, 2013, 01:08 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Moundir View Post
Gen 4s by far have the best oiling because of pan and the gear pump! Arrow has them spinning to 8000rpms with the proper cam and lifters... What's wrong with going with a dry sump if you are going all out?
I never plan to track my car(Road Race) And for 10 sec or so of hitting the gas, i dont think a dry sump would be worth the cost.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 01:11 PM   #4
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I believe Gen IV, you can also go much larger with the IV, and I would imagine cooling and oiling efficiency was increased due to their previous generations. I believe you can go 522 off a gen IV where as the most I've seen reliably from a GEN II was 510. just my thoughts.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 01:41 PM   #5
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Will has my gen3 at 522 now and has their own secret modification to improve the oiling system. I was told that dodge has improved the oiling system as to date and has taken care of some minor issues but still hasnt taken care of the MAIN issue causing the rod bearings to spin. RSI figured it out! One reason my cars there and nowhere else Definately a great peace of mind!
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:38 PM   #6
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I think Sal still uses a Gen 2 block and he claimed his old setup was 2,200hp at the flywheel. I'm sure it's a modified Gen 2 block. I remember someone else saying the Gen3 had the best block for all out performance. They didn't make many Gen4's so I bet the Gen3 is the cheapest and easiest to get the most out of. I remember Hollywood saying the 2005 and up Gen3 blocks were better than the 2003-2004 blocks. Not sure if it has to do with the crank sensor or something else. Just bringing up some points more knowledgeable guys can elaborate on.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrod_okc View Post
I never plan to track my car(Road Race) And for 10 sec or so of hitting the gas, i dont think a dry sump would be worth the cost.
what about for revving high?

I don't think any of the stock oil pump setups are going to support 7-8000 rpm.


what has RsI said? I need to talk to Will about the same issues soon...
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago View Post
what about for revving high?

I don't think any of the stock oil pump setups are going to support 7-8000 rpm.


what has RsI said? I need to talk to Will about the same issues soon...
Correct. RPM is the main enemy to the stock based wet sump systems.

Lee Saunders' silver GTS was on a stock Gen II block and crank up until a month or so ago. That combination was together for a very long time for the power it had been making recently, with some oiling mods and a dry sump system.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 04:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrod_okc View Post
Say you are building a max effort car. What block is the best, and why? Do certain gen's have better oil pumps, water pumps etc.. I know the gen 2 like to break the plastic impeller on the water pump. Bore size not a concern. Just strongest block and best cooling. Cranks not really a problem, plan to go billet crank. But, would like to know the differences in cranks if anyone know the ins and outs. I searched for hours last night and never found my answers on any of the forums.

And Oiling, dont really want to go dry sump. So is there a aftermarket oil pump? What years has the best oiling, from what i have read, the gen 4 has the best oiling bc of the new pick up design and pan.

Thanks, Jared
Jared, you should ask Will this question.

I can never understand why all the RSI guys always come on here and ask all the guys on here who have mostly not done anything a question like this.... Disrespectful to Will IMO.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 04:38 PM   #10
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Paolo, I don't think it's DR at all towards Will and his teams expertise, as an owner you are ultimately responsible for the decisions you make. becoming more informed about any subject based on others opinions, technical knowledge and previous experiences are very important. not saying RSI isn't usually right, but I like to know more than what any one tuner and or person says I "should" do. I would be willing to bet Will is more than willing to listen to others on their experiences and to converse about it.

open your mind to knowledge, don't close it under the preface of perceived possible disrespect when none truly exists. there is no mal-intent here.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 04:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo Castellano View Post
Jared, you should ask Will this question.

I can never understand why all the RSI guys always come on here and ask all the guys on here who have mostly not done anything a question like this.... Disrespectful to Will IMO.

Has nothing to do with RSI. I like to know things about my car, i work on my cars alot. And i like to know why what and how. My other two cars i know a good bit about, the viper i am getting there. I started this thread, bc there was not one like it that i had found on any of the forums. Why let someone build you a car 100% and not know why it is the way it is?? I dont like to be like, well RSI built the car ask them the details. I want to know why, people use what they use and why they do it. I trust Will with my car, and i talk to him alot about little things. I just figured this would be a great thread for others as well as myself to learn from.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #12
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Sal is still using gen 2 blocks.
Gen1 blocks are dry sleeved and have thicker blocks making them stronger.
Gen2 blocks are wet sleeved with lighter blocks potentially making then weaker.
Dart sleeves for the viper block are proprietary owned by race engineering in ca which is where Drummond/Sal send their blocks to get machined and installed.

Porting of the front cover and lapping the oil pump gears helps with oil pressure stability but is going to be hard to get those little gears to pump enough oil through all those passages at 6k+ rpms reliably.

To run a gen 3/4 block in a gen 1/2 you will need to be running a aftermarket ecu to be able to run the different crank and cam sensors.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 05:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrod_okc View Post
Has nothing to do with RSI. I like to know things about my car, i work on my cars alot. And i like to know why what and how. My other two cars i know a good bit about, the viper i am getting there. I started this thread, bc there was not one like it that i had found on any of the forums. Why let someone build you a car 100% and not know why it is the way it is?? I dont like to be like, well RSI built the car ask them the details. I want to know why, people use what they use and why they do it. I trust Will with my car, and i talk to him alot about little things. I just figured this would be a great thread for others as well as myself to learn from.
I agree with you here! Nothing wrong about learning about your car build and veryfing the info they give you instead of just taking the tuner's word as the gospel! You just have o be careful of all the bad advice and info you will get from most of the know it all stayed in a Holliday in crowd!
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Old January 28th, 2013, 05:50 PM   #14
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03-04 blocks have a nagging flaw for high hp builds.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 06:19 PM   #15
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What are the flaws of 03-04 that make them less desirable ?
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Old January 28th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #16
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What are the flaws of 03-04 that make them less desirable ?
Contact Will at RSI.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 07:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrod_okc View Post
Has nothing to do with RSI. I like to know things about my car, i work on my cars alot. And i like to know why what and how. My other two cars i know a good bit about, the viper i am getting there. I started this thread, bc there was not one like it that i had found on any of the forums. Why let someone build you a car 100% and not know why it is the way it is?? I dont like to be like, well RSI built the car ask them the details. I want to know why, people use what they use and why they do it. I trust Will with my car, and i talk to him alot about little things. I just figured this would be a great thread for others as well as myself to learn from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post
03-04 blocks have a nagging flaw for high hp builds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbokraft View Post
What are the flaws of 03-04 that make them less desirable ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hollywood View Post
Contact Will at RSI.
example A?

LOL
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Old January 28th, 2013, 08:01 PM   #18
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There's nothing wrong with the gen II block that can't be fixed. There are 3 problems and they're all related to the oil system. Problem 1 is that rods 5 and 7 do not receive pressurized oil for over 20 degrees of crank rotation. There are several ways to fix that. Problem 2 is that crappy little oil pump on the front of the crank that is spinning way too fast. They start to Cavatate below 4000 rpm. You fix that problem by mounting an external oil pump, You don't need to go dry sump. Problems 3 is the 3 inch main bearingdid size, fix that with your bill it crank, make it 2 .75 inches. get some 2 .75 inch billet main caps on the bottom with spacers on the top half, modify those spacers to fix problem 1.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 09:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvip View Post
I think Sal still uses a Gen 2 block and he claimed his old setup was 2,200hp at the flywheel.
He's claimed 3000 crank more recently. I believe he has Darton MID sleeves, but I could be misremembering.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 10:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primedtsi View Post
sal is still using gen 2 blocks.
Gen1 blocks are dry sleeved and have thicker blocks making them stronger.
Gen2 blocks are wet sleeved with lighter blocks potentially making then weaker.
Dart sleeves for the viper block are proprietary owned by race engineering in ca which is where drummond/sal send their blocks to get machined and installed.

Porting of the front cover and lapping the oil pump gears helps with oil pressure stability but is going to be hard to get those little gears to pump enough oil through all those passages at 6k+ rpms reliably.

To run a gen 3/4 block in a gen 1/2 you will need to be running a aftermarket ecu to be able to run the different crank and cam sensors.
ditto
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