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Need Alignment/Track Setup Advice on my Gen3

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Need Alignment/Track Setup Advice on my Gen3
Old November 30th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #1
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Need Alignment/Track Setup Advice on my Gen3

Would appreciate any advice from serious track guys here...THANKS

I am having trouble getting my gen 3 to pull down under hard brakeing with ABS interference and alot of sliding going into the corner before turn in with my new setup.

Ever since i changed to a coilover setup and more aggressive alignment it seems my front tires are either not laying flat or there is not enough weight transfer going to the front tires due to stiffer springs and the weight staying backward.

My new alignment is Front (-1.5 deg) 1mm toe out.....and Rear (-1.0 deg) 2mm total toe in
Brakes are HAWK HP+ on Stoptech Rotors w/braided lines
Tires are Nitto Invo's on stock gen 3 wheels(32psi front 28psi rear)

The only thing i was going to do is buy a new set of Forgeline wheels with a wider front wheel. Will step up to a 305 series front tire and probably going with Michilin Super Sport tires all around. But is my alignment good....I had heavy outside shoulder block wear on the stock alignment/suspension setup at the track before...completely destroyed a nice set of Michilin PS2's due to factory alignment and soft springs. Ran alittle more camber and the wear is better.

Now the car just won't pull down....and i can't just move brakeing pressure to the rear due to the brembo setup on this car....it is supposed to do it automaticly....but doesn't feel like much is happening.....i wish i could adjust the porporting valve and just do it manually.

Need some advice on where to go from here.....THANKS
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Old December 1st, 2012, 02:07 PM   #2
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This is what I am running on my gen 3 and I get around pretty well.
-2.5 front camber
-1.2 rear camber
.2 TOTAL toe in rear
0-.1 TOTAL toe in front

I use these specs for hoosier slicks, A-6's, and Sport Cups.

Steve A.

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Originally Posted by MambaViper View Post
Would appreciate any advice from serious track guys here...THANKS

I am having trouble getting my gen 3 to pull down under hard brakeing with ABS interference and alot of sliding going into the corner before turn in with my new setup.

Ever since i changed to a coilover setup and more aggressive alignment it seems my front tires are either not laying flat or there is not enough weight transfer going to the front tires due to stiffer springs and the weight staying backward.

My new alignment is Front (-1.5 deg) 1mm toe out.....and Rear (-1.0 deg) 2mm total toe in
Brakes are HAWK HP+ on Stoptech Rotors w/braided lines
Tires are Nitto Invo's on stock gen 3 wheels(32psi front 28psi rear)

The only thing i was going to do is buy a new set of Forgeline wheels with a wider front wheel. Will step up to a 305 series front tire and probably going with Michilin Super Sport tires all around. But is my alignment good....I had heavy outside shoulder block wear on the stock alignment/suspension setup at the track before...completely destroyed a nice set of Michilin PS2's due to factory alignment and soft springs. Ran alittle more camber and the wear is better.

Now the car just won't pull down....and i can't just move brakeing pressure to the rear due to the brembo setup on this car....it is supposed to do it automaticly....but doesn't feel like much is happening.....i wish i could adjust the porporting valve and just do it manually.

Need some advice on where to go from here.....THANKS
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Old December 1st, 2012, 04:40 PM   #3
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Thanks for the reply Steve....What kind of tire pressure are you running at the track? Stock width wheels i assume.

Also, what (suspension/spring rate) are you running?

Brake Mods??
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Old December 1st, 2012, 05:57 PM   #4
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315's on the A-6's 305 slicks 295 sport cups.

18" wheels all around with stock widths.

I have full Gen 4 aero rear and comp coupe splitter up front. Motons with 1000 lb rears and 700 fronts.

DTC60's in the front and DTC 60's in the rear on 1 piece rotors, OEM Brembos that I slotted.

That is all.

Steve


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Originally Posted by MambaViper View Post
Thanks for the reply Steve....What kind of tire pressure are you running at the track? Stock width wheels i assume.

Also, what (suspension/spring rate) are you running?

Brake Mods??
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Old December 1st, 2012, 06:04 PM   #5
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What kind of coilover set up do you have and did you have it corner weighted when you did the alignment? Also, needs to have something like 1.5 in rake. Haven't run on Nitto's, good starting tire pressure is 29 all around, then hot pressure at 36 psi (adjust up or down cold). Front's cold at 32 seems real high. Good spring rate (track/street) for a non-aero car is 500 front, 800 rear. I have moton's with 700/1300 springs, 18" forgelines on R-6's, stopetech's with brakeman 3's.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 06:24 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by RedTanRT/10 View Post
What kind of coilover set up do you have and did you have it corner weighted when you did the alignment? Also, needs to have something like 1.5 in rake. Haven't run on Nitto's, good starting tire pressure is 29 all around, then hot pressure at 36 psi (adjust up or down cold). Front's cold at 32 seems real high. Good spring rate (track/street) for a non-aero car is 500 front, 800 rear. I have moton's with 700/1300 springs, 18" forgelines on R-6's, stopetech's with brakeman 3's.
1.5 in" rake is to much and that's what's causing the lack of rear bias. You should be between .5-.75" rake
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Old December 1st, 2012, 06:50 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by MTGTS View Post
1.5 in" rake is to much and that's what's causing the lack of rear bias. You should be between .5-.75" rake
That's why I said to the OP "something" like 1 1/2 , who know's how his is set up? Grabbed the ACR book, rough track recommendation is 1 1/8, smooth is 1 3/8 Hey I was close when I said 1 1/2. Non aero cars surely need less like you said, but it needs to be checked.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 08:18 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by RedTanRT/10 View Post
That's why I said to the OP "something" like 1 1/2 , who know's how his is set up? Grabbed the ACR book, rough track recommendation is 1 1/8, smooth is 1 3/8 Hey I was close when I said 1 1/2. Non aero cars surely need less like you said, but it needs to be checked.
yes, I forgot about the areo.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 09:02 AM   #9
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You could try a little more rebound at the back to slow the rate of unloading the rear tires, and a litte more bump at the front. Non-aero cars on softer springs need a lot of careful thought on damping and driving inputs to make them work well. There's a lot of shaft stroke and body movement to control.

Everything's a compromise. The more initial negative camber you dial in, the less footprint you have to work with under braking. If your favorite track has long corners with a lot of load, then more camber is called for. If you have longer straights and tight corners, you can benefit from a more square footprint under accel/decel.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 07:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTS Dean View Post
You could try a little more rebound at the back to slow the rate of unloading the rear tires, and a litte more bump at the front. Non-aero cars on softer springs need a lot of careful thought on damping and driving inputs to make them work well. There's a lot of shaft stroke and body movement to control.

Everything's a compromise. The more initial negative camber you dial in, the less footprint you have to work with under braking. If your favorite track has long corners with a lot of load, then more camber is called for. If you have longer straights and tight corners, you can benefit from a more square footprint under accel/decel.
Thanks for all the respones.......i have already softened the compression more and will add a few more clicks of bump now....but i have a feeling things won't change untill i get a wider front tire (305-315) that is a softer compound with softer front springs.....i have the front so stiff right now.....i don't feel any weight transfer going to the front wheels.

I really wish i had the areo package at the track.....that is exactly what i feel i need is more downforce pushing on the front end to flatten the contact patch and pull the car down hard. I guess i realized there is a balance of just how stiff you can go with suspension on a street car and how agressive of a brake package you can run. I need a little more track time to dial it in.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 09:50 AM   #11
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Mamba, you never did answer about the actual coil over and spring set up you have. Let us know and the advice will become more useful. If you are increasing front tire or rim size I would say the 315 is the only way to go, the 305 sidewall is way to short IMO.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:53 AM   #12
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Mamba, you never did answer about the actual coil over and spring set up you have. Let us know and the advice will become more useful. If you are increasing front tire or rim size I would say the 315 is the only way to go, the 305 sidewall is way to short IMO.
Ya that would be helpful for you guys.....I am running the Aldan shocks with their own springs they sell them with new....i am currently trying to run down the spring rate of that package.

I initially just wanted to lower my car thats why i didn't buy the moton's or KW's....and now i wish i would of just bought the Moton's for the track time i am putting in.

I haven't blown out any of the shocks yet like the past problems the aldans had....so i know i have the newer design.....and i can't complain about the ride much.....the front just feels much stiffer and the rear feels about the same if not a little more plush than stock on the softer settings.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 08:22 PM   #13
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So a year later after i started this thread and i am still working on the front end locking up and slideing under hard brakeing. Some big changes to my setup but same results.

This year i have run 3 different Alignments, 3 different tires, all new poly bushings and the car is now on a Forgline 19x11's on the front end with 305 Nitto's. I have continued to stand the front tire up taller and taller with less agressive alignments starting at -1.5 then to -1.0 and now -.5 with 0 toe. As the tire has gone more upright i have noticed it has started to gain alittle more traction under brakeing but i just think i am looking in the wrong place.

Since i lowered the car i have noticed little to no weight transfer to the front end under brakeing. Plus it sits 200 lbs lighter now...and driving it the front ends tends to feel springy and stiff.....My spring rates are 550 front / 800 rear. My next mod will be going down to a 500 lb front.....How much will that soften the front up?? Should i go lower to a 450 or 400??

On a side note the car has never handled better than i have it right now. I really don't want to mess anything up elsewhere....i just really want to get my brakeing back.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 10:14 PM   #14
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How is it that an ABS car is having lockup problems? That was always a Gen1/2 issue that was fixed on the Gen 3. Time for a sensor/control unit trouble-shooting session.

I think you're also going the wrong direction on front springrate. I'd go up to 600# and that should help weight transfer and crispness. I run 600/800 on my Penskes.

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Old November 29th, 2013, 09:35 AM   #15
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A few more relevant questions for you;

What pads are you using front and rear?

What is the ride height front and rear (at the frame points)?

Shock settings for compression and rebound?

How do you apply the brakes? Hard and fast or do you "set them" then push hard? If you are jumping in and pushing as hard as you can then you will always have this issue.

Another thing is I still feel that the extra short sidewall tire you have chosen in front could be contributing to the instant over loading of the available contact patch relative to the rear.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 11:54 AM   #16
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I'm running Hawk HP+ front and rear/ braided lines with Motul RBF600 full synthetic

I have played around with compression and rebound settings alot....seems to like softer rebound settings in the front...but compression does not have much effect. The rear has no effect at all on the brakeing just hard accelleration at the drag strip it likes the setting all the way soft.

As far as the ride height i have only measured fender wheel well clearance when aligning it to make sure there was no rubbing and all sides were level with each other....appearance wise the car is slammed.

When you apply the brakes it initially bites much harder than a soft pad would but if you keep pushing steady the front will just lock and start sliding.....the slideing wears the inside front tires bad which is why i started standing the tires up with little neg. deg to get a better footprint.

Dean....i did recently have had an ABS light come on late this season....which i ran the code and it read Right and Left rear ABS Sensor failure.....but the issue was going on a year ago and just recently it threw codes...so i am now looking over the ABS system....but why do you think going stiffer in the front would help....the car rides incedibly stiff in the front now and it just feels like it needs more front weight transfer to get the nose to dive alittle under hard breaking.....going stiffer would be holding weight back which i feel is causeing the problem?
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Old November 29th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #17
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Are the front shocks on the bump stops if it is that low?(makes sense if the front is bouncy) There is a point (3.9") front ride height that the suspension geometry stops working well.

If the pads bite that hard then that could be the reason, that and you are not getting the weight transfer and the "light" front end is just sliding.
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Old November 29th, 2013, 01:19 PM   #18
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Ok...where do i measure the 3.9in from......the shocks are on the lower part of the adjustment but not right off the bump stops. My rears are lower on the adjustments than the fronts are. I had a feeling this could of been the problem a long time ago but to get the ride height set right it needs to be there.

If this does turn out to be my issue, what are my options with this suspension and the ride height i am looking for? How does a Moton differ?
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Old November 29th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #19
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You absolutely MUST stop measuring ride height off ANY bodywork!!! The only suitable reference is the lower frame rail - and the correct place to measure is at the axle centerline at each end of the car. After you baseline your ride height and rake from those points, you can move out to the side sills for reference. You should also be setting the heights with shocks at 0/0 and a good jounce before measuring. After that, you can set compression and rebound.
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