Don't forget gearing. Supras have more gearing in the trany and in the rear end, and when they revev to 8500 rpms, they can compensate a lot for the difference in rwTQ.
Also everybody that street races from a roll on a turbo car brakes boost, and it makes a huge diference... I still think the GTS takes the win, but would love to see it.
I saw the street racing footage of T2k7 when Houston T run Kelly's TT GTs. I think they were both making around 1000 rwhp. In the video, Peter got behind Kelly about one car length and brake boosted. When he let off he took off very strongly and as he was passing Kelly, the viper got on it. The supra got one car ahead, and the viper stop his pull. At that point the Viper starting coming around and pulled it , at that time the Supra let off as the car lenghts were going to increase.
If the supra tries to launch at 5000 rpm's he will be putting down 600 rwhp and 450 rwt..
Let me start by saying the viper would most likely win.
For arguments like I quoted... your just a dumbass. I didn't know there was a golden rule to 5000 rpms = 600 hp on a supra. I didn't know you couldn't brake boost. I didn't know the gearing was the same let alone a 26" vs 28" tire to help with brake boosting. Then there are strokers, BB turbos, etc. Who knows with the new variable vein stuff coming out....
The fact is a supra can brake boost at most any speed and have next to nothing lag as long as the driver is not a dummy. anywhere between 40-80 mph (as this discussion pertains), I can brake boost and have instant response.
with all that said... cerabus parabus... the viper would win.
Wow, interesting thread, here is my 0.02 as I've had both, experienced both, raced both. This is the same post I wrote on SF:
Hey guys...interesting thread. I will say a few things:
I raced Kareem back when I had my TT Viper. Here are the facts from the race. I was running 12-13 psi and I was making about 920 rwhp. I was on Pirelli street tires. Kareem was running 34 psi and was on the NOS. He was making somewhere north of 900 rwhp and he was on 17 inch drag radials. We raced 2 times, and in both cases my Viper easily pulled him. The faster we went, the harder the pull. Safe to say he had the tire advantage and power was fairly close.
A few things to deduce from this race. ALOT has to do with driver, but we got up to about 200 mph and DEEEEEEP into 5th gear, the Viper was pulling away in 5th where driver doesn't matter much. As always, conditions matter. Things such as surface, brake boosting, etc...
On a side note, I raced Kelly Martin in his RSI built TT Viper at TX2K6. I was in my Supra. He was running 1,005 rwhp (what he made on the dyno the next day) and I was running about 850 rwhp or so (couldn't hook more than that in my Supra on small DR's). We ran 4 times and ALL races were VERYYYYYYY close. I would say that those races were won by the driver more so than the car (me). Although I will say that my old Viper was built to be more conducive to highway rolls than Kelly's Viper. I had huge turbo's that made power on the big end whereas Kelly had a street kit with smaller turbo's that were torquey down low but didn't have the same pull as my big turbo car did up top.
At the end of the day, I came back to a Supra. For various reasons, but most importantly to me, I wanted QUALITY, something the Viper severely lacked. The inside of the Supra is like being in a Lexus and the potential to mod is great. Also, the Supra is more rare than the Viper, that meant something to me as well. I will however concede, if you want to be the KING of the highway, the ONLY car to have is a BIG TURBO built Viper. They hook better, have better gearing, have the TQ which makes the hit easier, and pull like NOTHING I've experienced on the big end. Just my 0.02
Being an AVID fan of both, even with equal HP numbers I've had in a BOTH cars (sup having to be on C16 of course....bummer) the viper ANNIHILATED AND RAPED my supra. Sad, but VERY true. I hated having to prep the supra to be "fast" as my viper on pump. But I did like the sup for what it was-kinda an exotic import if you will.
I'd like another one one day. I only sold it cause i couldnt' refuse the offer.
Wow, interesting thread, here is my 0.02 as I've had both, experienced both, raced both. This is the same post I wrote on SF:
Hey guys...interesting thread. I will say a few things:
I raced Kareem back when I had my TT Viper. Here are the facts from the race. I was running 12-13 psi and I was making about 920 rwhp. I was on Pirelli street tires. Kareem was running 34 psi and was on the NOS. He was making somewhere north of 900 rwhp and he was on 17 inch drag radials. We raced 2 times, and in both cases my Viper easily pulled him. The faster we went, the harder the pull. Safe to say he had the tire advantage and power was fairly close.
A few things to deduce from this race. ALOT has to do with driver, but we got up to about 200 mph and DEEEEEEP into 5th gear, the Viper was pulling away in 5th where driver doesn't matter much. As always, conditions matter. Things such as surface, brake boosting, etc...
On a side note, I raced Kelly Martin in his RSI built TT Viper at TX2K6. I was in my Supra. He was running 1,005 rwhp (what he made on the dyno the next day) and I was running about 850 rwhp or so (couldn't hook more than that in my Supra on small DR's). We ran 4 times and ALL races were VERYYYYYYY close. I would say that those races were won by the driver more so than the car (me). Although I will say that my old Viper was built to be more conducive to highway rolls than Kelly's Viper. I had huge turbo's that made power on the big end whereas Kelly had a street kit with smaller turbo's that were torquey down low but didn't have the same pull as my big turbo car did up top.
At the end of the day, I came back to a Supra. For various reasons, but most importantly to me, I wanted QUALITY, something the Viper severely lacked. The inside of the Supra is like being in a Lexus and the potential to mod is great. Also, the Supra is more rare than the Viper, that meant something to me as well. I will however concede, if you want to be the KING of the highway, the ONLY car to have is a BIG TURBO built Viper. They hook better, have better gearing, have the TQ which makes the hit easier, and pull like NOTHING I've experienced on the big end. Just my 0.02
Peter
I do consider you an authority on both cars.....more so with the supra, and I think your post SUMMED it up very well and very accurate Peter. I will always want another supra and I'll get one one day.
I didn't know we should distinguish between THE VW car and just a car built by VW as we don't when describing the cars built by other tuners. We just refer to them as a Underground Racing car or a Heffner car, etc. not THE UR car. But maybe VW has only put out 1 or 2 cars so it is expected that the only car refered to as a VW car would be THE VW drag car.
In any case he got spanked, twice.
And your car got spanked also! You forgot to show that too. Why???
James let's get honest here. I knew and you knew my car was hurt but I was down to run those last 2 races. Let's lay the cards on the table here. Our cars were NOT equal. Your car made more power and was built more then my supra. You had a UGR built motor and SC combo while I had a STOCK motor with a 67 kit on my car. After this race (your loss), I helped make your car go faster. While I didn't have time to go through my car and find the problem. (Which I now did, it was a lifted head) Even though I have a supra, I have respect for the viper and ALL fast cars. Even though that thread started on Supraforums, I didn't just post my 1 win and said here's proof. If you want to man up and buy another viper when you move back here to vegas, I would be glad to show you my taillights on the freeway. Trust me, even though I am on a stock motor STILL, the results would be entirely different. And I'll be sure to post ALL the video's of those races, not just the ones I won.
Diesel engines have more cylinders than most engines around. You also have to remember that diesels max out at 3000 rpms. I think Audi can fix that for us though.
James let's get honest here. I knew and you knew my car was hurt but I was down to run those last 2 races. Let's lay the cards on the table here. Our cars were NOT equal. Your car made more power and was built more then my supra. You had a UGR built motor and SC combo while I had a STOCK motor with a 67 kit on my car. After this race (your loss), I helped make your car go faster. While I didn't have time to go through my car and find the problem. (Which I now did, it was a lifted head) Even though I have a supra, I have respect for the viper and ALL fast cars. Even though that thread started on Supraforums, I didn't just post my 1 win and said here's proof. If you want to man up and buy another viper when you move back here to vegas, I would be glad to show you my taillights on the freeway. Trust me, even though I am on a stock motor STILL, the results would be entirely different. And I'll be sure to post ALL the video's of those races, not just the ones I won.
Actually I tried finding that video to post also, but couldn't find it, thought it was on streetfire with the rest of them. In any case, yes I did lose the first race, you and Garth got my car setup properly after that loss and I came back after only having an alignment, four corner balance and DR's to beat you the next 2 times. I never heard anything about your car being broke, only that after you lost the last 2 races you were going to a super duper turbo. The only thing I remember and maybe Garth can back this up is you had a slight boost leak somewhere and could never find it, but you were still making tons of power. The first race was lost due to my inexperience, only my 3rd ever race, and lack of traction with the stock pilots. That was very evident in the next 2 races when I had more experience and the better grip with the DR's. As those 2 races were like night and day compared to the first race.
So yes I will always say a very experienced driver in a well setup car for the roll ons beat me the first time out against him in my ill setup Viper and hardly any experience.
If I ever get a another Viper it would definitely be a TT, so I am not so sure I would be putting up your stock motored Supra up against a TT Viper. But that is just me. In any case it's all good, no reason to get butt hurt or anything. You won 1 and I won 2. I got rid of the Viper for a reason, so the chances of you and me racing again are slim to none, at least in a Viper. I could bring out the TL though.
I am more interested in seeing you race Les now. When is that race going to take place?
Yeah the boost leak was my head lifting. Origonally I thought it was the intake manifold but the head bolts streched to a point that under high boost it would leak. I put ARP head studs and a new gasket and she runs great. Yes I did upgrade to a 74 GTS so now she is making about 850-875 rwhp. That's about far as I'm going to push the stock block. No hard feelings, I just wanted the whole story told. Actually I am going to be racing a TT Viper soon. I'm sure vids will follow. And yes I'm sure some Les vids will be in there also. I'll race the TL in my old lady's TSX! But I'm sure you'll have me covered. To get back on topic though, it's tough to dirve a 1000 hp car on the street no matter if it's a supra or a viper. Viper guy's might brag about all that torque but it isn't easy to use on the street. Most big hp TT vipers I know are turned down for the street. True, on a track if both cars are set up correctly, a car with higher average hp/tq (broader powerband) would win but on the street it's a different game. For me it's the supra.
That is a 05 or 06 GTO with APS TT kit on it on a stock shortblock. It made about 600rwhp in those videos. Since then he has blown up the engine and it is being replaced with a forged bottom end with I believe bigger turbos. Also he didn't have his fuel system completed during those videos so he would only run up to about 5k rpms before shifting. That GTO will definitely be something to contend with when it is put back together with the forged shortblock, bigger turbos and a good fuel system. That will be a very good run between the GTO and Danny's Supra. I will probably drive down when that race takes place as at the time we had the fastest 3 cars when I had the Viper that showed regularly at the bridge races. I liked that GTO so much I am currently contemplating picking one up and having Les work on it for a new DD.
Just out of Curiosity is this Les's APS GTO we are talking about?
Properly driven... the Viper because it makes the power easier and will come on much smoother then the Supra will. And the Viper will also produce more TQ to get it off the line quicker while the HP pulls it through the gears.
To put it in perspective... the 1K HP is like an adult and a small child walking along side each other. They're both going the same pace but the child is working alot harder to get there and maintain the pace.
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