Keith got me thinking in a reply to me on another thread about the war in Iraq. Obviously it is an unpopular war some say unjustified, be that as it may we're there now and difficult decisions must be made on how to proceed from here.
Do we pull out? Stay the course? Intensify our efforts? So what do you think? What would be the ramifications of your decision? How will be viewed in the eyes of the world? Will we have allies if we stay? How will our economic situation be impacted? What about Iran? Can we even win this war?
__________________
Coin-er of "Soup"
Betamax will make a comeback!
Ron, our leadership fucked up when they went the pc route with this war. You can't fight a war worried about what everybody thinks. Everybody hates the U.S. so that's a non issue.
Somebody has to be the babysitter, and we're it. Nobody else will step up to the plate. Until somebody else plays babysitter, we have to do the dirty work. The problem is the gov. acting like fags thinking we can do this and other countries will be grateful.............................FAT CHANCE
We give billions of dollars every year to these unthankful countries. When are the powers that be gonna wake the fuck up????
__________________
Some people are like slinkies- Not really good for anything but bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.
Mismanaged cluster fuck. We need to withdrawal all our troops, let the sunnis and shiites duke it out, then make nice with the winners. I support our troops, but I think they're getting the shaft by this administration's foreign policies.
I agree with Evil. It used to be I paid attention to what was going on over there, but now I don't even bother. Every week we lose another 10-20 military members, the Iraqi's blow some more shit up and kill some more of their own people and the politicians don't do shit about it. I am not old enough to know anything about Vietnam, but I could see people having the same stance now as they did back then.
Keith got me thinking in a reply to me on another thread about the war in Iraq. Obviously it is an unpopular war some say unjustified, be that as it may we're there now and difficult decisions must be made on how to proceed from here.
Do we pull out? Stay the course? Intensify our efforts? So what do you think? What would be the ramifications of your decision? How will be viewed in the eyes of the world? Will we have allies if we stay? How will our economic situation be impacted? What about Iran? Can we even win this war?
It will never happen, but...I think the taming of the Wild West approach is what's needed. Take it or leave it alone. America was made great by taking what we wanted, not wasting our resources on neverending broken promises of a new world. Who cares how we are seen by the rest of the world? They hate us anyway. Take the land. Keep the land. Fuck everybody else. If we can't do that then just stay home, close our borders, and save money for the Utopia we would call America.
We seemed to go in there under false pretenses with a "we'll fuck up everyone" attitude and little foresight into what may happen. The administration under estimated the troops levels we'd need, underestimated resistance, and has since made it worse that when they started. We phoned it in and now we're paying the price. At this point we either carpet bomb the entire country or get the fuck out, all or nothing.
NoRice, I do see one big difference between this war and Vietnam and that is the support at home. I'm glad we as a society were able to look back on many of the misjustices done to American soldiers in the Vietnam war and learn and not repeat those same mistakes. Every scum sucking hippie cock sucker who ever muttered a foul word to an American serviceman returning from Vietnam or spat upon his uniform should suffer a lifetime of guilt for they are low life dog excrement unworthy of their freedoms.
My step father was jumped by a group of anti war activists simply walking down the street in uniform after returning from 3 tours in Vietnam with the Marines. They hit him and spit on him. I'm glad to see that even though many of us do not support the war, reprehensible behavior like that has not happened.
Now, I was not alive for it, but being a History major I feel it is the same problem we had in Vietnam....Suits are running this war not the guys with the stars on their chests....and they are FUCKING it up!...this is not a a win/lose situation anymore...we won the war with Iraq but the situation is obviously far from over....
What I feel needs to happen is we need to give our troops what they really need...the proper funding and equipment, and give our generals the authority to make the decisions on the ground and not worry about being PC....
Regardless...our troops are doing their jobs, and doing it well....and agreeing with the current administration is irrelevant...we need to support and back our troops because without them we would not be able to say we are American...
__________________
94 Mustang GT:Built on March 4, 1994...1 of 1,383
Mods:Bassani Cat-Back,Bassani O/R X,Bassani Headers, Edelbrock Performer Manifold,FMS 65mm TB,red Pro-M 80mm MAF,Custom CAI,Chrome Cobra R's w/Kumho's
Waiting to install:ASP UD pulleys WOOT
My feelings have changed quite a bit after seeing so many young men and women forever affected for a group that neithers wants their freedom nor deserves it.
This war has been reduced to the American military driving the streets of Iraq waiting for an IED to detonate or waiting for a sniper to get a bead on a platoon leader. It's time to leave and let the chips fall where they may.
If it turns into a terrorist minicamp, then it's time to take the leash off the dog and carpet bomb the entire country, might as well bomb Iran at that time as the gas mileage will be the same.
Now, I was not alive for it, but being a History major I feel it is the same problem we had in Vietnam....
Not even close. Are those history books you're studying or today's New York Post?
People that say this war is mismanaged would say the same thing about the D-Day invasion or Iwo Jima if they read a little history and applied the same logic. If there is any mismanagement in this war it is on the side of the Iraqis.
We captured Saddam and he was tried and executed by his own people. Anywhere else in the world that would be considered a resounding victory but not with the irrational Bush haters in the good ol' "but we support the troops" USA.
Hate Bush all you want. Hate the war all you want. Pull out if you want. But we have and are kicking ass over there. It is the Iraqis that are losing, not us. In fact, it just goes to show how big of losers Iraqis are when they have the most powerful military in the history of the world supporting them and they are still too chickenshit to fight for their own freedom. They are fuckheads and hopefully the next Iraq-Kuwait, Iraq-Iran, Afghanistan-Soviet conflict will result in some old fashioned carpet bombing techniques by American made B2s.
We take the gloves off and finish what we started. Kick the fucking media out and make it illegal to politicize the war. To all the whining spineless pussies who say they would have voted against the war had they known what they know now, you can all go to hell. Man up and live with your decision! We quit now and all those who've given their lives will have died for nothing.
Not even close. Are those history books you're studying or today's New York Post?
People that say this war is mismanaged would say the same thing about the D-Day invasion or Iwo Jima if they read a little history and applied the same logic. If there is any mismanagement in this war it is on the side of the Iraqis.
We captured Saddam and he was tried and executed by his own people. Anywhere else in the world that would be considered a resounding victory but not with the irrational Bush haters in the good ol' "but we support the troops" USA.
Hate Bush all you want. Hate the war all you want. Pull out if you want. But we have and are kicking ass over there. It is the Iraqis that are losing, not us. In fact, it just goes to show how big of losers Iraqis are when they have the most powerful military in the history of the world supporting them and they are still too chickenshit to fight for their own freedom. They are fuckheads and hopefully the next Iraq-Kuwait, Iraq-Iran, Afghanistan-Soviet conflict will result in some old fashioned carpet bombing techniques by American made B2s.
come on, do you honestly think that our government has provided our troops with everything they have needed to be successful? I don't....Our government is too worried about possible civilian deaths or damage to non military sites to actually let our military off its leash....
The war in Iraq can not be compared to the Normandy invasion, or Iwo Jima at all....entirely different situations...we were fighting the armies of a nation at Normandy, and Iwo Jima...armies that had central commands who issued orders, with land to defend and tactics to implement...in Iraq we are no longer fighting a conventional enemy...we can't attack the nation of "terrorism" it doesnt exist...we are fighting independent bands of enemies...that are at best very loosley controlled by an influential source of power...and niether can be fought in the same way....
Troop levels need to be increased and the media needs to be sent on the first flight out. Gloves need to come off. The new troops that need to go there should be securing the damn borders to stop the influx of material from Iran and Syria. Step 2 control the Iraqi's and bribe them (we are throwing money away at other endeavors anyway.) to turn over the hostiles. A get tough policy is needed to quiet the discontent and stop worrying about how the media will play it in the States.
My feelings have changed quite a bit after seeing so many young men and women forever affected for a group that neithers wants their freedom nor deserves it.
This war has been reduced to the American military driving the streets of Iraq waiting for an IED to detonate or waiting for a sniper to get a bead on a platoon leader. It's time to leave and let the chips fall where they may.
If it turns into a terrorist minicamp, then it's time to take the leash off the dog and carpet bomb the entire country, might as well bomb Iran at that time as the gas mileage will be the same.
Last year I would not have been happy hearing this Doc. Now I can not agree more. If we can't take the leash off of our boys then it is time to throw the towel in.
Bush still has a chance to leave a legacy of something other then a fuck-up. Now he needs to grow some Big Balls
Throw out the reporters and let the Military loose and things would change. Sorry to say this but I rather see dead Iraqi kids in the streets then ours. I don't care if they are civilians, terrorists or media, your in the way your dead.
__________________
10.40/ 1.65 60' time on Pirelli Street tires
Racing a Honda is like racing in the Special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded.
Not even close. Are those history books you're studying or today's New York Post?
Actually you can draw quite a few parallels between Iraq and Vietnam.
- Similar levels of support at the begining vs. slumping support after a couple years.
- Vietnam was sold to the American people as stopping the global threat of Communism, Iraq, and toppling Saddam, was sold as stopping the global threat of terrorism.
- In 1964 the US used the supposed sinking of a destroyer in the Gulk of Tonkin by North Vietnam as the precident for war, later proven untrue, the Bush administration used the 9/11 attacks and WMDs as a precidence for war with Iraq siting supposed intelligence linking the two, both later proven untrue.
- The NVA and guerilla VC relied heavily on guerilla warface and boobie traps, as well as hit and run fighting. Al Queda, ditto...
- The Vietnamese hated the French, so do we.
- We lost soldiers in Vietnam for a jungle nobody wants, right now we're losing soldiers in a sandbox nobody wants.
In fact one of the biggest disimilarities in the two wars is how long it took to fight the actual wars. Iraq fell quicker than Liddel in the Jackson fight, but we're still there playing babysitter due to poor planning and a lack of understanding of the dynamic political/cultural issues.
Quote:
People that say this war is mismanaged would say the same thing about the D-Day invasion or Iwo Jima if they read a little history and applied the same logic. If there is any mismanagement in this war it is on the side of the Iraqis.
There were certainly fuck ups in WW2 campaigns, but if your argument is that because we've fucked up before it's okay to fuck up again, then I think you have some logic of your own that needs work. From what I see, Al Queda and other militants have done pretty well in managing what they have to work with. The Shining Path style hierarchy of loose leadership and individual cells has been very effective in limiting our intelligence and making them more difficult to track down.
Quote:
We captured Saddam and he was tried and executed by his own people. Anywhere else in the world that would be considered a resounding victory but not with the irrational Bush haters in the good ol' "but we support the troops" USA.
I guess that depends how you define "victory". Bush's idea of "victory" differs greatly from mine, al a Mission Accomplished....
Quote:
Hate Bush all you want. Hate the war all you want. Pull out if you want. But we have and are kicking ass over there. It is the Iraqis that are losing, not us. In fact, it just goes to show how big of losers Iraqis are when they have the most powerful military in the history of the world supporting them and they are still too chickenshit to fight for their own freedom. They are fuckheads and hopefully the next Iraq-Kuwait, Iraq-Iran, Afghanistan-Soviet conflict will result in some old fashioned carpet bombing techniques by American made B2s.
I will agree with you on these points. They seem to be more interested in fighting each other than in establishing any kind of meaningful coexistence. Ultimately it's their children who suffer the consequences, but better theirs than ours. Bring the boys home.
You can't be successful over there folks. We're dealing with people who live their lives in a way NONE of us could fathom. They will not ever have peace as long as Israel is on the planet and probably America as well. The have no fear of death and no moral values regarding innocent life. I am not sure how you win a war like this or if it really is even possible to do so.
