Tito is a fat wuss, remember when he wouldn't fight Chuck because they were "friends". To which Cuck said, "I know the guy, but we're not friends."
Tito = Puss
I knew Shamrock couldn't do it, but I wish he stomped Tito!!!
The only fight he ever lost was due to a cut 17 seconds into the fight by and illegal elbow. He later fought the same guy (Tsuyoshi Kohsaka), and destroyed him. Can anyone beat this machine?
Although Fedor is the best fighter I have even seen in MMA, he still throws punches that are 1/2 as powerful/fast as an Elite Heavyweight boxer. And his punches are top notch in MMA. Imagine a Lenox Lewis/George Forman in there prime connecting with 4 ounce (?) gloves.... Someone would end up dead. Seriously....
I know, I know, they would just take them to the ground. But I have yet to watch an MMA fight where there hand speed + power could compare to an 'Elite' Boxer. And when you watch boxers they are usually carrying around 10-12 ounces vs. 4. Imagine how fast there hands would be minus 8 ounces? And the speed already looks double that of MMA as is.
IMHO, that is the only thing missing from MMA. Judo - Great. Kicking - Great. Elbows - Great. Knees - Great. Wrestling - Great. Submissions - Great. Punching/boxing - So so.
Why? Well, most people don't understand that elite boxers have been training since the age of 6. It takes 10's of years of training and God given ability to generate that type of power and speed.
So what's my point? I think if MMA eventually becomes big enough and lucrative enough, the 'Ultimate Fighter' will eventually come from a boxing background, and then learn the wrestling/judo/submissions etc... in 5 years. Problem is, an elite boxer would never consider MMA because the purse in boxing can be 20 million per fight.
Fuck that shit. Ordered it on PPV and I probably won't do it ever again. The Ortiz/Shamrock fight was just called way too early, just like the Gracie fight earlier this year. Should have restarted or something, but I think even Tito knew it was BS. And the 25 minutes of standup in the Arlovsky fight was even worse. That was the most anticipated and worst UFC fight night I've ever seen.
Are you talking about the Gracie V. Hughes fight? That wasnt even a fight, as the whole 5 minutes was Royce trying to stay alive. At no point was he even in the fight. As far as the Tito shamrock fight, the first time I watched it I thought it was called way to early, but after watching it again Shamrock was done. 2 more seconds into the fight and that would have been very evident. Ken cant take shots anymore. Watch him with in his fight against rich franklin. He layed there and ate punches, with an almost dear in headlights look that he was being attacked. Did anyone notice Ken trying to throw punches? Just about the most pathetic looking punches Ive ever seen in a professional fight.
Although Fedor is the best fighter I have even seen in MMA, he still throws punches that are 1/2 as powerful/fast as an Elite Heavyweight boxer. And his punches are top notch in MMA. Imagine a Lenox Lewis/George Forman in there prime connecting with 4 ounce (?) gloves.... Someone would end up dead. Seriously....
I know, I know, they would just take them to the ground. But I have yet to watch an MMA fight where there hand speed + power could compare to an 'Elite' Boxer. And when you watch boxers they are usually carrying around 10-12 ounces vs. 4. Imagine how fast there hands would be minus 8 ounces? And the speed already looks double that of MMA as is.
IMHO, that is the only thing missing from MMA. Judo - Great. Kicking - Great. Elbows - Great. Knees - Great. Wrestling - Great. Submissions - Great. Punching/boxing - So so.
Why? Well, most people don't understand that elite boxers have been training since the age of 6. It takes 10's of years of training and God given ability to generate that type of power and speed.
So what's my point? I think if MMA eventually becomes big enough and lucrative enough, the 'Ultimate Fighter' will eventually come from a boxing background, and then learn the wrestling/judo/submissions etc... in 5 years. Problem is, an elite boxer would never consider MMA because the purse in boxing can be 20 million per fight.
everyone knows about the "1 punch knockout". when you get guys that are 6'2" plus and weigh 250 plus thats just what happens. there are plenty of 1 punch guys in the ufc. you need to watch more fights. at the end of the day they WILL go to the ground. thats what this sport is. its not boxing. lewis or foreman would not know what to do if they were on the ground. they wouldnt know how to defend anything. "10 years to generate that type of hand speed"????
you dont think chuck liddell has hand speed? i hate him but have you ever seen phil baroni throw blows? how about vitor belfort? go back and watch him fight tank abbot or marvin eastman. if thats not hand speed then i dont know what hand speed is.
just my opinion. but you know what they say about opinions!
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everyone knows about the "1 punch knockout". when you get guys that are 6'2" plus and weigh 250 plus thats just what happens. there are plenty of 1 punch guys in the ufc. you need to watch more fights. at the end of the day they WILL go to the ground. thats what this sport is. its not boxing. lewis or foreman would not know what to do if they were on the ground. they wouldnt know how to defend anything. "10 years to generate that type of hand speed"????
you dont think chuck liddell has hand speed? i hate him but have you ever seen phil baroni throw blows? how about vitor belfort? go back and watch him fight tank abbot or marvin eastman. if thats not hand speed then i dont know what hand speed is.
just my opinion. but you know what they say about opinions!
I've watched plenty of fights, and the one's you mentioned. There may be some 1 punch guys in the MMA, but they are slow, not nearly as powerful (A clean shot from Foreman with 4 ounce gloves could possibly be fatal. A mere jab that connects with 4 ounce gloves would put someone out) and not skilled/accurate compared to an elite boxer. And no, I think Chucks hands are extremely slow compared to an elite boxer (Bernard Hopkins / Shane Mosley). EXTREMELY slow.... Not to mention they telegraph there punches and are not nearly as accurate. And yes, elite boxers that can generate sick handspeed, power, and accuracy. They train for years to achieve these skills. Most since they were kids. Foot work is the key to speed and power, and takes years to master.
What's funny is most people that know MMA don't know boxing, and vice-versa. And I agree with you that someone like George Foreman or Lenox Lewis would lose in the ring with these guys, but give them 5 years to learn how to defend a takedown & kicks, etc... and they would be unstoppable IMO. Take for example Chuck L. Most of his recent fights have been basically stand-up. Why? Because he has learned to defend the take down extremely well. He is not even that good on the ground, so how is he champion if all fight go to the ground? He beats guys that are better ground fighters. Now take an elite boxer and train him for a few years to defend the takedown/kicks/etc.... He would destroy Chuck in a matter of 30 seconds. That's the exact reason Chuck lost to that dude in Pride (Forget his name - Black dude that wears a chain into ring). Dude was a better boxer. For pure punching skills, Chuck is slow, uncordinated, inaccurate, and off balance. But this does not become apparent when fighting someone of your caliber of less. He looks great because the competition is even worse (Standup).
But to argue my point is 'pointless', because no elite boxer will ever switch to MMA until the purses become larger than those they can achieve in boxing.
BTW - Don't get me wrong, the guys in MMA are awesome. But someone who is truly elite in punching skills is missing. And will be until the $$$ is there.
Last edited by onerareviper : July 10th, 2006 at 12:24 PM.
Now take an elite boxer and train him for a few years to defend the takedown/kicks/etc.... He would destroy Chuck in a matter of 30 seconds. That's the exact reason Chuck lost to that dude in Pride (Forget his name - Black dude that wears a chain into ring). Dude was a better boxer. For pure punching skills, Chuck is slow, uncordinated, inaccurate, and off balance. But this does not become apparent when fighting someone of your caliber of less. He looks great because the competition is even worse (Standup).
Quinton "Rampage" Jackson - Now that is a nasty fucker. He would decimate any of the UFC fighters.
Watch Jackson vs Kevin Randallman and compare it to anything you see in the UFC.
The fight was stopped waaaay too early. That was total BULLSHIT. Shamrock wasn't limp, etc. He knew what was happening and was trying to move out of the way and was flailing his arms against those raining elbows. Stopping the fight that way is like Ortiz landing a solid right, Shamrock staggering back keeping his balance with his arms and Tito getting in a few more japs and rights before Shamrock goes down. Total BS. I've seen plenty of fighters gain their whits after a pummelling like that.. Perhaps Shamrock would have gotten rocked later on, but that was just too early.
G
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I've watched plenty of fights, and the one's you mentioned. There may be some 1 punch guys in the MMA, but they are slow, not nearly as powerful (A clean shot from Foreman with 4 ounce gloves could possibly be fatal. A mere jab that connects with 4 ounce gloves would put someone out) and not skilled/accurate compared to an elite boxer. And no, I think Chucks hands are extremely slow compared to an elite boxer (Bernard Hopkins / Shane Mosley). EXTREMELY slow.... Not to mention they telegraph there punches and are not nearly as accurate. And yes, elite boxers that can generate sick handspeed, power, and accuracy. They train for years to achieve these skills. Most since they were kids. Foot work is the key to speed and power, and takes years to master.
What's funny is most people that know MMA don't know boxing, and vice-versa. And I agree with you that someone like George Foreman or Lenox Lewis would lose in the ring with these guys, but give them 5 years to learn how to defend a takedown & kicks, etc... and they would be unstoppable IMO. Take for example Chuck L. Most of his recent fights have been basically stand-up. Why? Because he has learned to defend the take down extremely well. He is not even that good on the ground, so how is he champion if all fight go to the ground? He beats guys that are better ground fighters. Now take an elite boxer and train him for a few years to defend the takedown/kicks/etc.... He would destroy Chuck in a matter of 30 seconds. That's the exact reason Chuck lost to that dude in Pride (Forget his name - Black dude that wears a chain into ring). Dude was a better boxer. For pure punching skills, Chuck is slow, uncordinated, inaccurate, and off balance. But this does not become apparent when fighting someone of your caliber of less. He looks great because the competition is even worse (Standup).
But to argue my point is 'pointless', because no elite boxer will ever switch to MMA until the purses become larger than those they can achieve in boxing.
BTW - Don't get me wrong, the guys in MMA are awesome. But someone who is truly elite in punching skills is missing. And will be until the $$$ is there.
chuck lost to rampage so what. mike tyson lost to buster douglas. what are you getting at? rampage was beat by vanderlei silva and marvin eastman. tito beat vanderlie, chuck beat tito. vitor belfort beat eastman in the 1st round with ungodly handspeed that you say is not handspeed. see where im going? you mentioned george foreman earlier. do you think he has ELITE hand speed as you call it? he has some power but not speed. you lose that as you get larger. look at bob sapp from k1. did you see him fight kimo? sapp was 385 and huge for that fight. kimo was 250. kimo almost kicked his ass. and bob sapp drops bombs. you say a punch from foreman without a glove could be fatal. knees dont have protection in the ufc. how about a bare knee from a fighter? think that could be fatal?
if all the ufc heavy hitters telegraph their punches then how come opponents get knocked out? i guess they all suck. no, its probably because they are skilled and a big right hand is just 1 of many things that could be coming at your face.
good boxers are good boxers. they can throw hands. but to say chuck liddell doesnt have speed your on drugs. chuck didnt defend the take down real well with randy couture fight #1.
you love boxing obviously. thats your choice. i just cant stand boxing anymore.
im my opinion it blows goats. heavyweight boxing died with tyson. george foreman tried to revive it but he sells more grills. don kings a piece of shit. im done.
chuck lost to rampage so what. mike tyson lost to buster douglas. what are you getting at? rampage was beat by vanderlei silva and marvin eastman. tito beat vanderlie, chuck beat tito. vitor belfort beat eastman in the 1st round with ungodly handspeed that you say is not handspeed. see where im going? you mentioned george foreman earlier. do you think he has ELITE hand speed as you call it? he has some power but not speed. you lose that as you get larger. look at bob sapp from k1. did you see him fight kimo? sapp was 385 and huge for that fight. kimo was 250. kimo almost kicked his ass. and bob sapp drops bombs. you say a punch from foreman without a glove could be fatal. knees dont have protection in the ufc. how about a bare knee from a fighter? think that could be fatal?
if all the ufc heavy hitters telegraph their punches then how come opponents get knocked out? i guess they all suck. no, its probably because they are skilled and a big right hand is just 1 of many things that could be coming at your face.
good boxers are good boxers. they can throw hands. but to say chuck liddell doesnt have speed your on drugs. chuck didnt defend the take down real well with randy couture fight #1.
you love boxing obviously. thats your choice. i just cant stand boxing anymore.
im my opinion it blows goats. heavyweight boxing died with tyson. george foreman tried to revive it but he sells more grills. don kings a piece of shit. im done.
I think your missing my point.... I love watching MMA, and dispise the antics in Pro-boxing. But I can respect there skills, and there is a huge difference in punching power, speed, and punching coordination. As far as Bob Sapp & Kimo Those guys are HORRIBLE punchers. Big, yes, but horrible technique and explosiveness. Just because you're big does not mean you have power. There punches look more like pushes, especially that green mile looking dude.... It's actually funny watching some of these big K1 slobs fight.
George Foreman in his prime as a young man was quick and powerful. I was not talking old-man Foreman. And to say Chuck has half the speed of someone like Roy Jones Jr./Mosley is insane. Roy could throw 3 punches before Chuck could throw 1, and with way more accuracy and power. And the reason MMA guys connect with there punches (when toe to toe) is because, yes, MMA fighters are not elite stand up punchers. Boxing is not like you think, it takes a LIFETIME of commitment and God given talent to become one of the elite I am speaking of. Put Chuck in the boxing ring with Mosley or Roy Jones and he would not hit them ONCE. It would be a freak'in joke. You are overstating MMA fighters punching skills by a long shot, simple because they are fighting someone else that is no better than them. A bad boxer can look great against a horrible boxer. Peter McNeily look incredible to attain his 33-0 record fighting club fighter before facing Mike Tyson, thanks to Don King. It's all relative. Chuck in the ring with an AVERAGE pro boxer would get knocked silly inside of 1 minute (stand-up punching). I promise you....
Now again, I realize boxing is not what MMA is all about. And sure, these guys would take a elite boxer that had zero training in MMA to the ground - and it would be over. BUT, give that elite boxer a few years of MMA training to defend the takedown and learn some ground skills and that is the next evolution in MMA. But again, that will probably not happen due to $$$. And I will never be able to be 'Right' or 'Wrong'.
Last edited by onerareviper : July 10th, 2006 at 04:58 PM.
Who's the big ass Russian guy (Krokop I think) that nearly kicks the head off of anyone he fights?
I heard Joe Rogan say during an interview that someone like a Roy Jones Jr. or early Tyson would probably end up killing almost any of the MMA guys before they could get him on the ground. I'd be willing to bet that most of the top boxers would certainly break a hand with the first solid punch landed due to those light gloves. Just my 2 pesos, shoot my wife kicks me around the casa.
Who's the big ass Russian guy (Krokop I think) that nearly kicks the head off of anyone he fights?
I heard Joe Rogan say during an interview that someone like a Roy Jones Jr. or early Tyson would probably end up killing almost any of the MMA guys before they could get him on the ground. I'd be willing to bet that most of the top boxers would certainly break a hand with the first solid punch landed due to those light gloves. Just my 2 pesos, shoot my wife kicks me around the casa.
CroCrop (sp?) is very good. His kicks are wicked, and I remember that fight where he nearly took that guys head off. But, he did lose to Fedor Emelianenko. Fedor is a machine. What's funny is Fox Sports just showed this fight a few hours ago. IMO, the fight showed two extremely strong guys with incredible grapling skills and explosiveness. The kicks/knees were wicked.... But as far as stand up fighting, they just squared up and exchanged blows. No angles, very little head movement, very little counter punching, not much punching power (in comparison to a top heavyweight boxer) (incredible power for MMA). Both fighters took MANY clean blows that were the other fighters power punch, and just fully obsorbed the blow and kept fighting. And these guys are big (220?). With 4 ounce gloves, that would not happen with a clean shot from a heavyweight boxer. Lights out, and can we have a stretcher in here please? There boxing skills were far below what you would see is a top amatuer boxing match. Hence, the last remaining weakness in MMA. And the reason for this is the time it takes to develop these skills is extremely long and time consuming + God given. Like I said, most boxing champions have learned the art since the age of 6. It is not something that can be taught in a few years, not to mention the God given talent must be there. Rockey movies are not real life, these guys are elite athletes.
That surprises me that Joe Rogan would make that comment. He is a big MMA proponent. Most MMA guys don't realize how quick an elite boxer is, and how quick there feet work. They are sooooo elusive. MMA guys always say, "We would just take them to the ground". Well, that is easier said than done. Heck, many MMA guys that prefer stand up can defend against the takedown. And they are slow and fairly stationary in comparison to a quick boxer. Watch the feet, not the hands, and you will see where I am coming from. I still think an elite boxer would require a few years of MMA training, though. Cause eventually, someone would corner them and get them to the ground. And if they don't have a good understand of how to defend, it's lights out. Bottom line: I just can't envision Tim Sylvia (UFC heavyweight champ) beating someone like Lenox Lewis (in his prime) with a years worth of MMA training. I truly think Tim would be knockout within 30 seconds. Watch the UFC 61 (Tim Sylvia vs Arlovski) fight and I think you will agree.
Last edited by onerareviper : July 11th, 2006 at 12:47 AM.
I disagree that a boxer would be able to dominate in the UFC the way some are saying. Chuck Liddel and Vitor have good hand speed, accuracy, and lots of power. Its important to remember that when you open up the rules and allow more than just punches from the waiste up it changes everything. MMA stand up is not boxing, and I very much disagree that if someone is a good boxer they will automatically be a good stand up fighter in MMA. I have seen Vitor in a regular boxing match and although he is no Roy Jones, my money would be on him in a stand up MMA fight against Roy.
I saw Roy Jones live one time and have been to 4 UFC events, trust me when I say there is no comparison. Jones threw 3 uppercuts in a row, you are not supposed to be able to do that and yet he did.
There is truth to both sides of the argument, but I think the MMA fighter would do well against a boxer due to leg kicks, however if a true heavyweight landed a bomb then it's lights out.
Also, from a medical point of view it isn't the single hard strike that kills you it's the repetitive punishment. That is why there have been far more deaths in boxing with the heavier gloves than there will ever be in MMA.
An example, when I was a senior in college I got mugged for my bicycle with a bat to the head. I broke my nose in 3 places, cracked my suborbital and knocked 2 teeth out - and yet I am still alive (I also had a good plastic surgeon). Even Tyson did not punch harder than a baseball bat.
Those guys are HORRIBLE punchers. Big, yes, but horrible technique and explosiveness. Just because you're big does not mean you have power. There punches look more like pushes, especially that green mile looking dude.... It's actually funny watching some of these big K1 slobs fight. 