Bush Authorized Domestic Spying
Post-9/11 Order Bypassed Special Court
President Bush signed a secret order in 2002 authorizing the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on U.S. citizens and foreign nationals in the United States, despite previous legal prohibitions against such domestic spying, sources with knowledge of the program said last night.
The super-secretive NSA, which has generally been barred from domestic spying except in narrow circumstances involving foreign nationals, has monitored the e-mail, telephone calls and other communications of hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of people under the program, the New York Times disclosed last night.
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Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Problem is, there is no oversight; so nobody can be sure that it is only used in that way. In fact, its been shown over and over that these kinds of "tools" are abused on a daily basis.
Look at the FBIs use of "secret warrents"; a use that was defined as being limited to terrorism, but has been used thousands of times on non-terrorism related cases.
The Pentagon has been using a "threat watch list" to monitor religious groups within the United States in violation of existing laws. There is even the distinct possibilty that military personnel are being used in this process (anotehr violation of the law).
While saying that it does not engage in torture, the President only yesterday gave up his fight to make the CIA exempt from the law. If you don't enagge in torture, why the need for an exemption? Only because you plan to use it.
So, why should you care? Because the government has proven incapable of being trusted to act in your best interest - the laws were put on the books to prevent this very type of abuse.
Anyone here could easily get caught up in this process by something as simple as a phone call to your local police to report you as behaving is a suspicious manner - maybe accuse you of engaging on radical islamic websites or activly trying to arrange a protest at a recruiter station; that puts you into the Pentagon's database and starts the whole process of Secret Warrants and illegal evesdropping on your life without your knowledge or without the oversight of the judicial system to ensure that your rights are protected.
This isn't about giving the government the tools they need to fight terrorism, its about the errosion of our rights and the protections afforded us under the Constitution and our laws. When the government works outside those laws, then it is a criminal act.
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Quote:
Originally Posted by packetjunkie
This isn't about giving the government the tools they need to fight terrorism, its about the errosion of our rights and the protections afforded us under the Constitution and our laws.
That is absolutely true. But as long as they bust terrorists with it and not me for spitting on the sidewalk I'll pretend they aren't doing anything wrong. LOL
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck 98 RT10
That is absolutely true. But as long as they bust terrorists with it and not me for spitting on the sidewalk I'll pretend they aren't doing anything wrong. LOL
You spit on the sidewalk for all those Florida blue heads to slip on?!?!?!?! Shame on you!!!
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Do I think it happened? Possibly, but there is a difference between that and this - specifically, that is a criminal offense and anything found during the course of that would be inadmissible in a court of law. Additionally, anyone caught doing it would lose their job, their security clearance and most like go to jail. This gives NSA a green light to do exactly what the law doesn't allow - which anyone in the military will tell you is an unlawful order.
It may not seem like much to some people, but should you ever find yourself caught up in such a senario and put in the position of having to defend yourself, I would think you would want the benefit of protections under the law and access to a lawyer.
Giving the government the power to spy on its people with no check and balances goes counter to our entire legal system and will result in abuse and a loss of the freedom we talk so much about. A police state in America is not what we fought and died for.
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
If some secret government agency monitors my phone calls and prevents the senseless murder of another 3,500 of my fellow countrymen, I don't have a problem with it. I think the only reason people are complaining is because they are just looking for something else to blame on President Bush. What are you willing to sacrifice to ensure your children have a safe place to live?
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Except that you cannot assume this would only be used against terrorists; once you take away the system of checks and balances you open the door to unchecked abuse. Look at the recent revelations about how "secret warrents" have been issued by the thousands by the FBI for cases not even remotely connected to terrorist - a tool to fight terrorism abused by those giving the tools to fight with them. What about "mistakes" which have lead to peaceful religious organizations being labeled as "threats" in Pentagon databases?
It's not that I don't want our government to have the tools it needs to fight terrorism; its that I do not trust politicans enough to let them break the laws designed to protect the innocent and subject us to a police state whereby police and federal authorities act without any constraint or concern for what they can and cannot do within the limits of the law.
Let me ask you this - if there is already a system involving a "secret court" (which there is), which is run by a judge who can quickly issue warrents; why would agencies need to break the law and go around the need for a court order? The judge in charge of this report is known as rarely, if ever, having denied the governments request - so why the need to go around her?
If you are notified that you have been accused of a crime and that you are being investigated - wouldn't you want to have access to a lawyer and the courts to prove your innocence? What if you were told that you could not speak to a lawyer and could not defend yourself in court and that even talking to an attorney would land you in jail for 10 years? That's exactly what is going on today - which may be fine to you because you don't see yourself getting caught up in the system; but what if you did because someone reported you or someone mistook your name for someone elses?
What if.
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
<History lesson for me here> It's the CIA that cannot use it's ability and resources to investigate on Americans in country. that was the role of the FBI. The NSA is supposed to be more of a 'in-between force'. It shared data between between both staffs, and did more covert investigations based on the esoteric data points.
Does the fact they are used in this role violate the charter that they are to be running under? Or are they free and clear from getting the gold stamp of GWB?
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
There were no WMDs.
I voted against the war before I voted for it.
Scotter Libby lied.
Blah, blah, blah.
This is just another scandal attempt brought about because the last eleventy-billion scandal attempts were ultimately fruitless.
The aim of the program was to rapidly monitor the phone calls and other communications of people in the United States believed to have contact with suspected associates of al Qaeda and other terrorist groups overseas, according to two former senior administration officials. Authorities
If it will prevent the future deaths of thousands of innocent American civilians, I would hope that Americans would be in favor of it. The intelligence communities inside the US were obviously unable to thwart the 9/11 attacks using the methods of the time.
And on top of that, is there proof that Americans [not affiliated with Al-Qaeda] have been under electonic surveillance? Have anyone's civil rights been violated (other than the terrorists and their contacts obviously) to date?
I can buy a gun and use it to kill someone. That doesn't make the act of selling me a gun criminal. It only has the "potential" for criminal activity.
It's funny how all of the sudden the "possibility" for something to occur is an actionable offence.
Democrats: George Bush authorized something that could conceivably be criminal.
Republicans: But it isn't yet.
Democrats: But it could be.
Republicans: So what? That doesn't mean we should impeach.
Democrats: YES WE SHOULD!
Flashback to 2004:
Democrats: The war in Iraq is illegal.
Republicans: Saddam Hussein could have conceivably built a nuclear weapon and either used it against us or sold it to someone who would have.
Democrats: But he didn't.
Republicans: But he could have.
Democrats: So what? That doesn't mean we should have gone to war over it.
Flashback to 6 months ago:
Democrats: The Republicans outed a covert CIA operative.
Republicans: She isn't a covert CIA operative, therefore she cannot be outed.
Democrats: But she could be.
Republicans: But she isn't.
Democrats: So what? That doesn't mean we should be outing her.
Republicans: She did a photo spread in Vanity Fair
Democrats: ....crickets....
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Bush Authorized Domestic Spying
Post-9/11 Order Bypassed Special Court
President Bush signed a secret order in 2002 authorizing the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on U.S. citizens and foreign nationals in the United States, despite previous legal prohibitions against such domestic spying, sources with knowledge of the program said last night.
The super-secretive NSA, which has generally been barred from domestic spying except in narrow circumstances involving foreign nationals, has monitored the e-mail, telephone calls and other communications of hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of people under the program, the New York Times disclosed last night.
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It wasn't me mike, I wasnt working that day!
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
No matter what the presidents intentions were when he pushed the button on unauthorized domestic spying, it is clearly a flagrant criminal act.
This is the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act:
Violations of the law carry criminal penalties and civil liability. The criminal sanctions are as follows:
(a) Prohibited activities
A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally---
(1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute; or
(2) discloses or uses information obtained under color of law by electronic surveillance, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through electronic surveillance not authorized by statute.
(b) Defense
It is a defense to a prosecution under subsection (a) of this section that the defendant was a law enforcement or investigative officer engaged in the course of his official duties and the electronic surveillance was authorized by and conducted pursuant to a search warrant or court order of a court of competent jurisdiction.
(c) Penalties
An offense described in this section is punishable by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both.
The potential civil liability is as follows:
An aggrieved person, other than a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 (a) or (b)(1)(A) of this title, respectively, who has been subjected to an electronic surveillance or about whom information obtained by electronic surveillance of such person has been disclosed or used in violation of section 1809 of this title shall have a cause of action against any person who committed such violation and shall be entitled to recover--
(a) actual damages, but not less than liquidated damages of $1,000 or $100 per day for each day of violation, whichever is greater;
(b) punitive damages; and
(c) reasonable attorney's fees and other investigation and litigation costs reasonably incurred.
Potentially thousands of Americans have claims for three years at $100 per day, or a maximum of about $110,000 each. I do wonder what the discovery rules are for those lawsuits.
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Bush continues to ignore the law and bypass the legislature on issues that require their involvement; Bush claims that he has broad powers under "War" laws, but no War has officially been declared. As such, the Presdient does not have the authority to do whatever he wants, to whoever he wants, whenever he wants.
Now, if someone were to say to me that these were limited in nature and only involved specific targets which required the President's signture for each and every instance, well, then I would ask how does this process differ from getting a judges approval and why the need to bypass the judicial system? Give me a good reason and I'd be inclined to listen to it; tell me its open ended and political appointees can determine who gets the treatment and I'll say its time for a criminal investigation.
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
It's all just politics. Democrats/liberals HATE President Bush. You have hated him from day one and hate him even more today than then. These kind of attacks have nothing to do with the reality of the situation at hand. Valerie Plame, War in Iraq, Patriot Act, blah, blah, blah. You hate the President. Those in the mainstream media and in Hollywood hate the President. Big deal. I'm sick and tired of listening to this crap. You loved Clinton but yet he was one of the biggest liars, the biggest crooks, the biggest abusers of power in the history of the Presdiency. You loved him, though, because he was your guy.
Re: Bush authorized domestic spying despite it being against the law
