Since this topic seems to be somewhat heated...I thought I would post some interesting views on the subject from someone who doesn't post here but is deep in the mix of Italian exotics.
Sorry for the long read but its a good one.
Michael Sheehan is the guy I am referring. I have talked with this guy a few times myself and I am impressed. (doesn't take much sometimes)
He has a lot of knowledge about exotics..new and old. He is an editor for Cavallino Magazine and an exotic car broker.
here is his web site...
http://www.ferraris-online.com/
Here is a blurb of his on the subject...
Ferruccio Lamborghini made his first fortune building tractors and his second producing heating appliances. At age 47 he set out to amass yet another fortune by designing, building and selling the ultimate grand touring auto. Thumbing his nose at Ferrari, located only 40 kilometers down the road, was an extra bonus.
Ever since the 350 GT debuted in 1964, the Lambo vs. Ferrari comparisons, contrasts and latenight heated discussions have been never–ending.
Classic Lamborghinis fall into two categories: the early front-engined cars, the 350 GT, 400 2+2 and Espada; and the first two mid–engined supercars, the Miura and the Countach, in all their various incarnations.
The comparable Ferraris from the same period start with the 250 Lusso and go through the Testarossa. While primarily a Ferrari guy, I’ve driven and owned my share of Lambos, and here’s my take on how they stack up against each other, apples to apples (rigatoni to rigatoni?) as much as possible.
We begin with the 1964 350 GT and its logical Ferrari counterpart, the 250 GT Lusso. The Lambo is clearly the technological winner, equipped with a 320–hp, four–cam V12, six two–barrel Webers, ZF five–speed, alloy body, fully independent suspension and a dual booster brake system. The Lusso had only a twin–cam 3.0–liter V12, three Webers, a four–speed tranny, and a steel body. Output was a meager 250 hp.
When new, the Ferrari outsold the 350 GT, 350 to 131. Having owned and driven both, the 350 GT is faster and more comfortable. But the market looks at things differently. A best–in–the–world 350 might get to $135,000, while the equivalent Lusso is going to come close to $275,000.
Why? The Lamborghini’s styling is not inspired, with a kind of “dumpling on a pancake” look to the greenhouse/body combination that has not stood the test of time. On the other hand, the Lusso has always been regarded as having singularly elegant styling. Despite being slower, the Lusso offers a more spirited driving experience, and produces the legendary V12 sound that conjures up images of Ferrari’s unmatched racing heritage.
Skipping past the 400, which was really just the 350 with tiny back seats added in a meaningless attempt to broaden its market appeal, Lamborghini’s next evolutionary leap was the Miura. Introduced in 1966, it was built as the P400 from 1966 to 1970, as the Miura S from 1970 to 1971 and the SV from 1971 to 1973.
The Miura was a visual and technological tour de force, and instantly made every other supercar on the planet obsolete. It had drop–dead gorgeous good looks, a lightweight monocoque “tub,” and a highly sophisticated sidewinder 4–liter engine with six Webers that produced 385 hp at 7,850 rpm. All up, with fluids, the Miura weighs in at only 2,800 pounds.
While the S had some improvements over the P400, it was the SV that represented the ultimate incarnation. It featured a much stiffer chassis, a split sump to separate the previously co–mingled engine oil from the transmission oil, and vented disc brakes. It also had nine–inch wide rear wheels encompassed by larger rear fender flares, all in an effort to keep the back end from passing the front, not an uncommon occurrence for Miura drivers whose enthusiasm exceeded their talents.
(Note: Over time, Miuras have become known for setting themselves on fire. The carburetors are mounted directly above the spark plugs, and leak if the floats stick. Thus fuel spills directly onto the hot cylinder heads, leading to instant toasted bull.)
Just as the SV was the best Miura, the Daytona was the most highly developed front–engined V12 Ferrari of the period, making a comparison between the two appropriate.
The Daytona is much heavier at 3,600 pounds, less powerful at 352 hp, sits much higher, and is certainly more subtle in its styling. However, once again the Ferrari outsold the Lambo, 1,279 units to 762 (all Miura models).
Obviously, the entire Miura series was technically more sophisticated, in theory faster, and certainly made a bolder statement than the Daytona. But Miuras suffered from poor build quality, redefined the term “instant rust,” are ultra–high maintenance, and lack the panache imbued by the Ferrari racing heritage.
Furthermore, I have never found enough road or courage to begin to find the top speed claimed for any of the Miuras; their reputation for extreme front–end lift at triple–digit speeds has reportedly led to many white–knuckle experiences. I can assure you that the Daytona will walk away from a Miura SV under acceleration.
But while Daytonas may have sold better when new, the SV is clearly the current market winner. A Miura P400 will cost $75,000 to $100,000; a Miura S, $100,000 to $150,000; and an SV $200,000 to $250,000. Daytonas sell in the $125,000 to $150,000 range. The high value of the SV is partly due to its limited production, with just 150 built, but mostly because its Gandini design will always be regarded as a landmark.
The last of the classic Lambos is the Countach, produced in a variety of versions from 1974 to 1989. It is appropriately compared to the 1974–89 Boxer, and the first–generation Testarossa (1985–91).
Once again, when unveiled the Countach was a technical and styling tour de force, although it quickly grew visually cluttered with wings and in the U.S., federal bumpers. The Boxer and even the Testarossa are more conservative mechanically and stylistically. Ferrari won the sales race, selling 3,623 Boxers and over 6,000 Testarossas, while just under 2,000 Countachs left the factory.
While it may seem strange to call a Boxer “user–friendly,” in fact the Miura and Countach are both so user–cruel that the Boxer seems like a Mercedes S–Class by comparison. The Lambos are sometimes referred to as 45–minute cars, meaning that before an hour is up, the driver wants out. The three–quarter and rear vision from a Countach is a joke; backing up a Countach is an exercise left to the young and limber, as the driver must open the door, sit on the sill, turn backwards and aim while balancing himself, the gas and the brakes.
Should I even mention that the Countach styling is so outrageous that you feel like a drug dealer the minute you get behind the wheel? While the Miura and the Countach may spec out better than the Boxer or Testarossa, in real life the Ferraris simply walk away from the Lambos. And the Ferraris are supported by a far more extensive dealer and parts network. Need a clutch in your Boxer or Testarossa? Figure on $3,500 to $4,500. For your Countach, that’ll be $10,000 to $12,000. Lamborghini ownership is not for the faint of heart, nor thin of wallet. Today Boxers sell in the $65,000–$95,000 range, and Testarossas in the $50,000–$65,000 range. Countachs are worth slightly more, with 25th Anniversary Editions bringing close to $100,000 if you find the right buyer on the right day.
So if you’re looking for a car that says “look at me,” the Miura or the Countach are the ticket. If you actually want to use your exotic–as opposed to visiting it in its dedicated service bay at your local shop–or if you enjoy a few hot laps at the next sports car club track day, I’d stick with the prancing horse.
Next month we’ll continue our look at raging bull vs. prancing horse with “From the Diablo to the Present: Multiple Management Shuffles and the Germans Now Run the Show.”
And his follow up article....
Okay, Lambo fanatics, enough! My mailbox is already overflowing with nastiness about last month’s column comparing early Lamborghinis with the equivalent Ferraris. Your passionate defenses notwithstanding, I still maintain that while, from a technical perspective, Lamborghinis were usually more sophisticated than their Ferrari counterparts, in the real world of actually using your exotic, the early Lamborghinis were user–cruel, high–maintenance monsters.
We’re going to pick up last month’s analysis starting after the turmoil of the 1970s, when Lamborghini passed out of the hands of founder Ferruccio Lamborghini. Through the mid–1980s, the firm was relatively stable, but the need for an all–new product line with major technological and production improvements made it obvious that a financially strong partner was needed. To that end, Chrysler purchased Lamborghini on April 23, 1987, with the clear intent to produce an all–new supercar that would put Lamborghini ahead of its annoying neighbor down the road in Maranello.
Countach production for Europe and Japan ended in May 1990, and the next generation Lamborghini, the all–new Diablo, was unveiled. It was fitted with a 5.7–liter V12 pumping out 485 horsepower, an improved cockpit, softer lines, and the now traditional up–swinging doors. For the first time, a Lamborghini was a “real” supercar—user–friendly, fast, and more subdued than the flashier Ferrari Testarossa.
Over time, the market has voted for the Diablo, valuing a 1991 Diablo at about $90,000, while a 1991 Testarossa sells for about $60,000. In 1992, Ferrari introduced the 512 TR to better compete. It featured a stiffer chassis and improved brakes, and the engine management system was changed from the Bosch CIS to the superior Motronic 2.7. Today the two cars are market equals, with a 1992 Diablo and 1992 512 TR both worth about $100,000.
Downside to the early Diablo? Clutches might last 10,000 miles, but expect 5,000 or less. Replacement will lighten your wallet by $9,000, as it is an engine–out service. A clutch on your Testarossa or 512 TR should easily make 15,000 miles and will set you back only $3,500 to $4,500 to replace. And while the Ferrari needs a 30,000–mile service (at $5,000), the Diablo needs a 15,000–mile service (about $4,000). Of course, you will probably be in for clutch work long before that, so while the engine is out, you may as well get the service done early.
Diablo sales peaked in 1991, the first year of production, and only continual updates helped the model survive. In March 1993, the Diablo VT with all–wheel drive was introduced, equipped with an adjustable suspension, larger front brake scoops, a new double–row cam chain, an improved mechanical chain tensioner, and many minor improvements.
In 1995 Ferrari countered with the much–improved and restyled 512M, narrowing the gap, but clearly leaving Lamborghini as technological leader. Interestingly enough, both the 1994–95 Diablo VT and the 1995 512M have a market value of about $135,000. In 1994 Lamborghini presented the Diablo SE (Special Edition) to celebrate its 30th anniversary. Equipped with two–wheel drive, many carbon fiber parts, and less sound–deadening material, only 26 cars were built for the U.S. market, making the SE one of the more collectable Lamborghinis.
In the same year, Chrysler Corporation agreed to sell Automobili Lamborghini to an Indonesian consortium, which, over the next eight years continued to “evolve” the Diablo. This led to a series of exclusive limited–edition models, including the Diablo SV from 1997–99; the Diablo VT Roadster from 1996–2000; the Diablo VT 6.0, built from 2000–01; and the carbon–fiber–bodied Diablo VT 6.0 SE in 2001. Each became flashier and faster, and the Diablo continued to be the supercar of choice for rock stars and sports celebrities.
Ferrari went in a different direction, returning to front–engine technology and more subdued styling with the introduction of the 550 Maranello in 1996. While direct performance comparisons are hard to make, a 1997 Diablo SV and a 1997 550 will both bring about $125,000, while a 2001 Diablo VT 6.0 and a 2001 550 Maranello will both bring about $160,000.
Over eleven years, Diablo production topped over 3,000 units in various forms, while Ferrari built about 2,280 512 TRs, about 515 512Ms, and about 3,600 550s in the same time period, for a total of 6,400 more–or–less market–equivalent Ferraris.
Audi entered the picture on July 24, 1998, when an agreement between the shareholders of Lamborghini was reached that ultimately led to Audi s complete take–over of the “Italian” firm. Hundreds of German engineers, technicians, designers and managers went south with the intent of building a new “large” Lamborghini and an all–new “small” car to keep up with Ferrari.
Introduced as a 2002 model, the Lamborghini Murciélago (the large car) continues the traditional gull–wing doors and mid–mounted V12, with an all–new six–speed gearbox mounted in front of the engine and a rear–mounted differential with full–time four–wheel drive. Continuing Lamborghini’s exotic one–upsmanship, all external bodywork panels are carbon fiber, with the exception of the steel roof and door panels.
The Murciélago’s dry–sump V12 is 6192 cc and delivers 580 horsepower, thanks to a variable–geometry intake system and variable valve timing. Additionally, the Murciélago features a drive–by–wire electronic throttle control and “active” traction control. With a 0–to–60 mph time of 3.8 seconds and a top speed of just over 200 mph, the Murciélago is indeed a supercar.
Creature comforts are improved over the Diablo by widening the door–opening angle and lowering the side member directly under the door by almost ten inches. Interior room has also been improved by redesigning the roof side members and increasing the size of the footwell.
Priced at $280,000 when new in 2002, a low–mileage Murciélago will bring about $220,000 today, normal depreciation for a “production” super–exotic.
For 2004, Lamborghini has introduced its all–new “small” car, the Gallardo, aimed directly at Ferrari’s 360 Modena. Audi/Lamborghini engineers chose to use a structural aluminum space frame for the baby Lambo, giving the car a dry weight of only 3,250 pounds. The permanent–all–wheel–drive Gallardo is powered by a mid–mounted 5–liter, dry–sump V10 producing some 500 horsepower and rocketing to a respectable 193 mph using a six–speed gearbox or the now de rigeur paddle shifter. Its 0–to–60 mph time is a staggering 4.2 seconds.
As expected, the Gallardo is higher tech than the 360 Modena, has 25 percent more horsepower (at 493), and an extra 101 pound–feet of torque (with 376). Curb weights are more or less the same, but top speed is 17 mph ahead of the 360. Lamborghini claims the Gallardo is an “everyday supercar” to be compared with a Porsche 911 Turbo as much as a 360 Modena, not just a toy for singles bar cruising. With a sticker price of $172,000 to $185,000, the Gallardo is currently selling at $5,000 to $10,000 over window sticker, a little more than a Modena coupe, but a bit back of the 360 Spyder.
In 2002, Lamborghini built 430 Murciélagos. With early delivery of the Gallardo to Europe, production for 2003 jumped to 1,025 cars. With its current facility and about 700 employees, Lamborghini can build 2,000 cars a year at most. Ferrari’s 1,600–plus employees, current manufacturing facilities, and corporate “exclusivity” policy limit total production to just over 4,000 cars per year.
There’s no question that over the past 14 years, Lamborghini has closed the gap with Ferrari, and the recent infusion of German technology has been nothing but good. After all, can you imagine a German putting up with an early Lambo’s electrics?
While with supercars it’s always been a case of, “you pay your money and you make your choices,” at least today the choices between Ferrari and Lamborghini are both good ones.
