On a gen 2 gts with bolt ons, no cats and catback what are the rwh figures and how much is your asking price. I think others are wondering the same thing.
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Originally Posted by American Racing Headers
Whoa! Haven't had a chance to post yet and I'm already in trouble. LOL
Hello everyone. My name is Nick Filippides and I represent American Racing Headers. We're located on Long Island N.Y. and have something we believe will make quite an impression.
A.R. Headers is a high end header manufacturer only 2-1/2 years in the making but we've accomplished quite a bit in a very short time.
If you follow the Corvette world at all or maybe have friends that do, you'll know we've raised the bar a few levels with the release of our Vette systems over 2 years ago. ARH may arguably be the hottest headers to own for Vettes as well as other GM and Ford vehicles.
About 6 month's ago we developed our GEN 2 Viper system but decided we'd lay low till we had an opportunity to complete both the GEN 3 and Dodge Ram SRT10 systems. Now with the completion of the GEN 3 we come to you with systems that we believe are quite unique and more affordable while making no comprimises in quality, fit and performance. I welcome everyone to check out americanracingheaders.com and get a glimpse of our Viper systems. I'm open to any questions you have including those regarding pricing. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to join viperalley. We look forward to participating as forum sponsors.
I think they are blowing some big smoke. You can due a number of searches online to find the differences.
Stainless steel is a far better material than mild steel. So that takes out Belanger, who has the cheapest material cost to produce their products. B&B uses 409 ss ..
Here is just one of the many articles that can be found online at any given time about the qualities of the 2 materials.
" The difference between T-304 "Pro Series" and T-409 “XP Series” is quite simple.
What makes stainless steel "stainless" is the addition of chromium to the alloy. Chromium
creates a film that serves as a buffer against corrosion, even when it is cut or scratched. The
more chromium there is in the alloy the more resistant it is to oxidization or corrosion. The
addition of nickel to the alloy enhances this resistance.
T-409 has a chromium content of between 10.50 – 11.75% and a nickel content of .50%. T-304 has a chromium content of between 18 – 20% and a nickel content of from 8–10%. In fact, there is so much chromium and nickel content in T304, and so little ferrous material, that a magnet will not stick to it.
A Pro Series T304 system will not rust or oxidize. It will develop a golden color over time when
exposed to high heat. XP Series T-409 has enough ferrous material in it that it will show
surface oxidization, especially when exposed to salt or calcium chloride. This oxidization can
be buffed off with stainless steel cleanser and a scouring pad.
T-304 is the highest grade of stainless steel that is used in most aftermarket exhaust systems. It is non-ferrous, which means it contains very little iron. As we all know iron rusts. Because of it's higher percentage of chromium, the T-304 system is basically impervious to corrosion. A good way to test the grade of a stainless steel is to place a magnet up against it. If it doesn’t stick to the metal, it is non-ferrous. If it sticks it has some degree of iron in it and is prone to rusting. T-304 is harder than T-409 and consequently is more difficult to form on the mandrel bending machines. T-304 is the specified grade of stainless steel for most food service, pharmaceutical, hospital, and medical facilities, as well as the grade of choice for most race car exhaust systems.
As you might have guessed by now, T-409 does have some degree of iron in it. It is a better grade of stainless steel than the stainless steel used in most OEM exhaust systems (if equipped), but it will turn brown/gray and is prone to getting rust spots over time. This is especially true if placed in service in Northern climates where salt is used on the roads during the Winter months.
Dyno results to follow very soon, headers are being made as we speak for our testing.
Todd
A&C Performance
__________________
UD LUZ
2003 SRT VERT
Paxton Supercharged, BUILT MOTOR
1000 RWHP+
Well I must admit, after spending the day working on my car at Belangers shop, I learned quite a bit.
I have Belangers headers on my car along with 3" stainless Corsa exhaust.
I pulled the side sills off the car immediately after I drove the car for 15 miles, and the stainless parts of the exhaust were hotter and held the heat longer than the aluminized parts did.
Louie Belanger explained to me that stainless is more expensive, heavier, is more prone to leaks, and radiates more heat.
This combination of stainless and aluminized exhaust has been on this car for 4 years, and no sign of rust or corrosion, even being a San Diego car where moisture in the air is present, unlike AZ where you can leave raw steel outside for 50 years and it won't rust.
Stainless exhaust also emits a higher pitched, tinny exhaust note as opposed to a deeper note that the aluminized exudes, which I have heard for myself with B&B's exhaust on my C5 & C6 Z06's.
__________________
"This post has a net worth of 1/3 of a cent"
Mike, We custom build headers for wide array of racing applications including NHRA Pro Stock. Stainless headers, particularly those made using 304 S/S, consistently outperform those using coated mild steel. Stainless scavenges far better because the material maintains even temperature throught the length of the primary. By design 304 S/S holds heat in extremely well and does a great job dissipating that heat as well. These are facts. Mild steel has to be coated to maintain any longevity. When the coating eventually fades or peels off you usually have a rusted hulk on you hands. With ARH's, you buy them, install them and forget about them.
Mike, We custom build headers for wide array of racing applications including NHRA Pro Stock. Stainless headers, particularly those made using 304 S/S, consistently outperform those using coated mild steel. Stainless scavenges far better because the material maintains even temperature throught the length of the primary. By design 304 S/S holds heat in extremely well and does a great job dissipating that heat as well. These are facts. Mild steel has to be coated to maintain any longevity. When the coating eventually fades or peels off you usually have a rusted hulk on you hands. With ARH's, you buy them, install them and forget about them.
Nick
Hmmm, I guess Belanger doesn't know what they are talking about then for the past 50 years.
I wonder why the top guys in NASCAR to Evil Knievel, to 80% of the guys in the Viper crowd, etc. have bought and used Belangers?
Is everyone missing something
Hey Nick, I would be willing to offer you a car that can demo a before and after "dyno tested" no b.s. result right now! I currently have one of my GenII Vipers at UnderGroundRacing having some refreshing done on it.
1996 B&W Paxton car currently putting down appx. 910rwhp. This is truly the BEST form of advertising for you to show the Viper community your products capabilities. There are several members here running the UGR supercharger systems that would love to see the stock vs. ARH header comparo. Feel free to PM me and lets try and put something together
Mike, I'd prefer not to come on here and criticize what others are doing. If Belenger prefers to sell mild steel headers then be my guest. Obviously he's been doing just that and it works for him.
We took a completely different approach, not just in materials used, but in the overall design of our systems. To really appreciate everything that goes into our Viper systems you need to see them first hand. Tremendous effort went into the overall design of these systems with the main goal to set ourselves apart from the rest. We firmly believe we've accomplished that. In time Viper owners will believe it as well.
Hmmm, I guess Belanger doesn't know what they are talking about then for the past 50 years.
I wonder why the top guys in NASCAR to Evil Knievel, to 80% of the guys in the Viper crowd, etc. have bought and used Belangers?
Is everyone missing something
Mike,
I would consider Belangers and others using different materials as "options". There are people I have spoken to (Viper specific shops, racers, builders, etc.) and have found people to swear by several different options, mild steel vs. SS or 5to1 burns collectors vs. tri-y designs, etc. I don't think of it as one being right or a direct challenge to others offering different options.
For my particular situation, I am leaning towards SS headers from the inputs I have received combined with my experience using 304 SS headers on my previous car that saw very high temps in a turbo'd application.
I just had a GREAT conversation with Nick, and I'm having a set built right now for one of my blower cars! I'll be posting my opinion on build quality, fitment, and providing dyno numbers before & after the installation. I'm pretty confident (after our conversation) that these will be a great offering for our cars I'm very much looking forward to working with him and providing everyone the results with pics, vids, etc.
It's unfortunate, but there isn't a shop out there that will do an independant test on the same car with different mods to see what the difference is.
THe only way to tell whose headers are better is to take the car in with the Belangers and dyno it, then take the Belangers off and install the new headers anddyno it again and see where the power is being made, and most importantly the torque.
I know from crotch rockets that you can dyno tune a bike and make a great HP & TQ # at a certain point, but when you ride the bike it feels like shit. Then I took the same bike back and had it retuned by another guy and the thing made a few HP & TQ less but it was an absolute animal because the HP & TQ were high all the way through the power band instead of just in a small area.
Like Louie told me, "What good is a high HP or TQ # if it is only made at a high RPM where you're shifting at, instead of all the way through the RPM range?"
Makes sense. I'd be interested in seeing an overlay of dyno runs with brand X against brand Z, and whoever is the winner goes the glory. Fair enough
Mike, I think with the Paxton cars this will be a lot less of an issue as exhaust gasses will be forced out due to boost.
Very true. I almost forgot about Louie telling me that 3" exhaust makes a N/A car slower, whereas the 2 1/2" is proven to have quicker 1/4 mile times.
Only when you are using a S/C or TT set-up is it necessary to run a 3"
Lou said that he makes 3" cat backs because everyone only wants to buy a 3" because they think bigger is better and it looks cooler.
Very true. I almost forgot about Louie telling me that 3" exhaust makes a N/A car slower, whereas the 2 1/2" is proven to have quicker 1/4 mile times.
Only when you are using a S/C or TT set-up is it necessary to run a 3"
Lou said that he makes 3" cat backs because everyone only wants to buy a 3" because they think bigger is better and it looks cooler.
Mike,
I am sure it all depends on the amount of air you are trying to flow, but there is merit to Lou's comments. Coming from a turbo environment, I ran as small of intercooler and exhaust that would still be efficient, yet allow for a quick spool and keep my torque reasonable at the lower rpm range vs. a peak number that I would seldom see. I always found it funny when fellow Supra owners would put 4" exhausts and 4 row intercoolers on a BPU or small single turbo'd car. As you referenced Lou in part previously, it is about area under the curve that really counts vs. some peak number achieved on a dyno....of course it would seem some attempt to win races on the dyno
Very true. I almost forgot about Louie telling me that 3" exhaust makes a N/A car slower, whereas the 2 1/2" is proven to have quicker 1/4 mile times.
Only when you are using a S/C or TT set-up is it necessary to run a 3"
Lou said that he makes 3" cat backs because everyone only wants to buy a 3" because they think bigger is better and it looks cooler.
Funny you mention that! I tried several set ups on a Gen II by running the 1/8 mile stock exhaust vs. corsa cat back vs. cat delete vs. cat delete & side sill muffler delete w/ 2 1/2" straight pipe and stock rear section. Believe it or not the muffler and cat delete with stock rear section performed .2 better average than any other combo!!
That being said, the S/C cars (I feel) are going to gain significantly across the rpm range with the headers due to extremely increased velocity of exhaust gasses and heat dissapation from the heads especially on the higher boost level cars
After 17 years of 1/4 mile racing cars and bikes on and off, and having built a few, I am still learning, and am open minded to everything. I do know that getting more HP on a dyno really can end up not meaning shit when you get the car to the track and run it.
We've all been misled by beating around the bush spending money on bullshit bolt-ons that hardly do anything but drain your wallet. I've gone down that road at least a dozen times, and what have we all ended up with was maybe an extra 30 to 50 RWHP for $5k to $10k, only to realize it would have been better to just bite the bullet and save your pennys for the TT or S/C.
Some of the top guys (Belanger, Ron Zimmerman, Joe Verdone, etc.) in the industry have told me several times in the past year to nevermind what the dyno says, but what the billboard at the track says, and that peak HP #'s don't mean shit it's all about the torque and where the car is making its power. What good is a car making an all of a sudden peak HP # at where you need to shift at or beyond???
To quote Lou again, "A moped can make 300 HP on a dyno if you put a big enough sproket on it, but it will take a few days for it to make that #. I'd rather make HP and TQ at a lower RPM and have it carry all the way through up to when the car needs to shift"
. I'm pretty confident (after our conversation) that these will be a great offering for our cars
I'm very much looking forward to working with him and providing everyone the results with pics, vids, etc.
